0:00:01 - Alex Shevelenko
Welcome to Experience-focused Leaders! I'm your host, Alex Shevelenko, and I'm delighted to introduce you to Alex Theuma, the co-founder and CEO of SaaStock. And in the SaaStock community Alex needs no introductions. Alex, could you please tell us a little bit about what SaaStock is?
0:00:24 - Alex Theuma
Yeah, thanks for having me here, Alex! Good to speak to another Alex. While that's been so many SaaStocks, as you said, I’m the founder of SaaStock and it's been running well, the first event since 2016. But the business was started in 2015. So we're going a little over eight years now, getting wider and hopefully better at what we're doing. And what is it that we're doing? Ultimately, it's all around the community for B2B SaaS.
So we started with community-driven content, meetups, Slack channels, etc., and that led to us putting on the first B2B SaaS conference in Europe, namely SaaStock, which happens in Dublin every year. That scaled up to now roughly about 4,000 attendees predominantly and more than 50% of B2B SaaS founders, a lot of their C-suite team and investors, and I guess, not only up-and-coming but also innovative SaaS products and companies that want to sell to other SaaS companies. So we have a large expo part of it, both from the bigger companies and unicorns that you'll know and love, like G2 or Intercom to the startup expo area.
The main event is in Dublin. We also launched in the US last year, which was 2023. So upcoming USA event number two is happening in May. We are probably less known because we don't do as much marketing. All the marketing is consumed, I would say, mostly by the events. We have a product called the SaaStock Founder Membership, which is an easy way to describe it. And if you know what these are, it's like an EO or YPO for SaaS. But really we want to build the world's leading support organization for B2B SaaS founders. So that they can come together and have a curated mastermind on a monthly basis, build out a global network of founders that are a few steps ahead of them, and get the right education they need to scale to 10 million ARR and far beyond.
0:02:47 - Alex Shevelenko
Amazing! Well, I can vouch for the amazing experiences that you create in Dublin. And I know you're innovating across the range from digital to physical experiences and on the founder membership. I know you're also doing cool events where people go to places. You make an offer you cannot refuse: go to a multi-coast and drink a lot of limoncello with fellow SaaS founders.
0:03:16 - Alex Theuma
We have the best limoncello!
0:03:19 - Alex Shevelenko
And learn a lot in that environment which is authentic and open. So I think you're doing a great service to the global SaaS community. I think, especially if you put yourself in places like Silicon Valley where it comes from, like, “Yeah, there is already an ecosystem there. There's a lot of inside knowledge.” You go anywhere outside of the Valley — basically, even in Austin, Seattle and New York that knowledge, the concentration is not quite there.
So you're creating this new hub that's virtual and physical around the world with meetups. I think this is amazing because the best SaaS founders keep learning from each other. You mentioned Godard Abel. I think it is a mutual admiration clap for Godard. He was a guest on this pod as well. What we probably both admire about somebody like that who's had multiple billion-dollar exits, he just keeps learning, he's a learning machine. He recommends what he's doing. So you're creating this playbook for startups around the world.
0:04:46 - Alex Theuma
Thanks, you probably said it better than I did. Ultimately, we are facilitating these connections and learnings by putting on the events or through the SaaStock Founder Membership, and there is more to it. You say you get the right people there and the magic happens. But there has to be a lot of work behind that and then also the curation of the experience there. So I think, and this is a big thing for us this year, serendipity in events has been certainly almost like part of the strategy. Like, okay, you just find a venue, invite the right people and you just let the magic happen because everybody's under the one roof right now. If you're doing an event of three or 4,000 people, it can be you all have serendipitous moments, right? But it can also be really hard to necessarily meet the right people for you that are the right value, maybe your future customers or investors. So there has to be more to that. We'll soon be publicly saying about serendipity being dead and that we have to look more at the experience and facilitating these one-to-one connections, which are probably the most useful things that people get out of the events.
Actually, I'm very excited about the SaaStock in Dublin this year, which will really be our first version of a new product. We're not like ripping everything out and throwing it away. It has been working. But it's also quite funny because, if you think about it again, SaaStock is eight years old. The first one was in 2016. The product has been a slow evolution, but a lot of what happened there is still there today. We're not like SaaS companies coming out with new features every week or every month. So I think we're long overdue. This is the industry. But at SaaStock we like to try and lead the way, even though there are some out there that are doing certain things better than us. So look this year at SaaStock. I'm super excited there are going to be new products, new experiences, and hopefully, that will make for the best one.
0:07:23 - Alex Shevelenko
I want to vouch for how SaaStock continues to innovate on a consistent basis.
I think when we were looking for our design partners, we are very fortunate to work with SaaS innovators like Salesforce on the one hand, but we were looking at who could be in the SaaS industry, who is smaller and has lots of amazing content. And so we were very fortunate to partner together with you, Alex. One of the reasons I think you picked us in the first place and we loved the partnership is that you really care about creating a great visual experience at the event, around the event, creating wonderful opportunities for sponsors to look well and professional, and create something that's, at the same time authentic. I think you're right, it doesn't happen just by serendipity above a certain number. I think you're very deliberate about creating experiences before, during, after the event, and so on. So I salute you, and I would agree that the innovation in the event industry is not as rapid as SaaS products. It feels stale at times.
0:08:46 - Alex Theuma
And probably the biggest innovation in the event industry over the last 40 years or so was the invention of virtual events and virtual conferences which then were obvious. Then it just exploded everywhere because it was really the only thing you could do during COVID. Now we're back in person. That's kind of gone away. Then most of these event organizers and companies who were excited about this kind of innovation are now just going back to doing the same thing that they've been doing for many years, right? That's kind of a funny thing about the biggest innovation is now dead, but at least these things have been tried.
We are cognizant of the fact that we need to innovate and, obviously, there is the saying “Innovate or die”. I do believe that while SaaStock is great today if we just continue doing the same thing we're doing for the next eight years, we probably won't be around or we will have plateaued. So I think now is the time that we're really going to take the bit between our teeth and innovate in 2024.
0:10:03 - Alex Shevelenko
Let's dive into your business a little bit and what are some of the innovation pillars around it.
0:10:12 - Alex Theuma
Yeah, I don't want to give away everything.
0:10:16 - Alex Shevelenko
We'll take it. But I would say a shout out to you. You're the podcasting veteran, with the SaaS Revolution show now being at over 400 episodes. And it is an innovation and ongoing learning versus the traditional paradigm of one time. It's going to be a reinforcement of the community that you're building as guest speakers and them sharing their expertise. So curious, what's that been like?
0:10:51 - Alex Theuma
Right, and what advice do you have for baby podcasters like yeah, well, yeah, the podcasting I mean the podcasting journey started in 2015. And because I had the blog which was called SaaScribe the time and that was community-driven content, I thought, look, I may as well do a podcast, right, and I've never done it and you know there's a little bit of fear inmoster syndrome because you haven't done it. And who am I to? You know, interview these people. My first guest was Mark Roberge, who was the CRO at HubSpot at the time. So pretty good one.
The good timing because and the way he landed him was he had his book out right, which the sales acceleration formula, which is, you know, a must read if you're in SaaS about. You know how he built out, you know the sales team to get to 100 million ARR with HubSpot, who are now probably what two billion ARR? I don't know the number, but you know it's pretty significant. And Mark is no longer there, but he's investing. He had a book out. So I was like, hey, do you want to come on my B2B SaaS podcast where and we can talk about your book? And literally, you know he'd be the first guest in there.
But it was obviously no audience initially. But do you know what that strategically that really helped because actually I think for about five or six years that was the most listened to episode, was episode number one right, and obviously that grew over time because it's kind of like evergreen content. But I think to get that first episode is the most successful. It's because we had a fantastic guest and so we kind of, you know, leapt forward you know many years just by kind of landing.
You know high quality guests and then on the back of that, because then I could refer, oh, we have Mark Roberge, it helped me land, you know a lot of great guests. You know in the first few months, Byron Deeter from Bessemer Venture Partners we had. You know Eoghan McCabe from Intercom and so on, and there's just me, you know, in the bedroom like going out there for a few months. But there was some like people that I could reference and actually probably an unfair advantage I had back then was nobody else was really doing it. I think there was one other B2B SaaS podcast. Now everybody's doing it.
0:12:56 - Alex Shevelenko
But now that you're famous, I could go after this episode and say, hey, I had Alex here on this one there we go, there we go. You got to follow where the SaaS leaders are. So podcast is one kind of area. You know, I'll kind of let's focus on the kind of the running of the business. So when you're running, you know, an event driven content driven business, right? Sponsors are probably the biggest source of revenue. Is that accurate?
0:13:22 - Alex Theuma
Correct? Yeah, roughly around 70%, 70%. It used to be about 50% for the first three years but it's kind of grown into 70%.
0:13:33 - Alex Shevelenko
Great. So I know that you guys are very thoughtful about creating a high velocity, engaging experience for the sponsors in terms of like, hey, here's the sponsorship portfolio, here's the portfolio, here's the options. You know, we've been very fortunate to kind of observe how you're innovating, integrating videos, so that you don't say, hey, trust us, we were awesome. You know you show what really happens. Rightly, you kind of have very concrete examples. You give people time to, you know, save them time because they can jump to the areas that they care about. So, you know, how has that, you know, paid off? Right? It sounds like it's a it's. You know, a lot of event businesses struggle with the economics of the business and I know, you know, saas industry has been going through a relatively tough spot, but you're continuing to put on a show and like tell us a little bit about more where you were innovating there, on velocity or expansion of your business.
0:14:36 - Alex Theuma
I mean, I guess it starts and you sort of made a bit of a reference there but whether it's kind of clear to the audience, right.
So we in the sales process, right, we're doing our job here today to show that, they're, say, a wise choice where we think about experience.
And again, if we look at like today, actually most sales meetings you know are done over over zoom or, you know, online and we want to have a good experience throughout that and and all of our partnership and sales materials and decks we run on RELAYTO and there, as you said, like you know, there may be, you know, videos that are embedded like certain sort of like navigation and user experience that we want to give the customers a little bit of a wow moment and a feeling that they're not just going through, let's say, a boring PDF. So hopefully, we get a feeling, reaction, something from that initial user experience which not only shows that we get it and we care. We're putting detail not only in the decks around experience but through to the actual physical event.
You know, and we're backing it up by showing you. Now, you know, on the sales call right, and people like you know if you go to the SaasStock website it's the same we put a video or like we've got part, which is the SaaStock experience again. Like people will kind of see that and get that and you know that's kind of run on on RELAYTO you can download the decks. But you know, it's also kind of nice when the the sales team kind of run through that with you. But I think that's all that, that's all really helpful in that kind of like pre experience.
Then you know, let's say, a partner signs up you know, in the run up to then, sometimes it's 12 months out, sometimes it's nine, sometimes it's six, sometimes it's two months, like before, but then we support them, you know, with, again, kind of the right materials and you know hubs for them to, you know, get all the information they need about the event and what's going to be happening, what they need and maybe what they need to buy additional to the stands that they build. You know the custom build stands that either we provide in a turnkey package and again, we don't skimp, you know, on the expense there, so there's a really nice uniform look and feel right through to. You know, obviously, the custom boots that they may build themselves and spend your next budget on. But it's very important then for us. You know that they, you know I guess the whole the expo area you know has that kind of great look and feel and just matches their experience. You know, from start to finish as well.
You know, on on top of then, the service levels that we provide, because, but I know some not naming names, but some conferences that you know they'll sign up the partner and they will then probably like not really speak to them or like give them any service between the time that they've signed and given them the money to then the actual event itself, and then it's kind of like it's over to you and not put any effort even into the booths right and how they look and feel. But we're very much the opposite around that. So we do care about that.
0:17:44 - Alex Shevelenko
We invest in that right through from things like RELAYTO right through to the actual physical event itself yeah, and I think you really you know the origins of SaaS. If I, if I read it correctly, it comes from your being fan of Jimi Hendrix and the Woodstock experience, and you want to stop name.
Yeah, exactly yeah the you wanted to create this rock and roll but like kind of memorable, you know, lifelong experience that you take away with you and it does like that care, I think, absolutely goes throughout. Right, like you. Yeah, you know what's the first thing you remember about the event? Typically like like a wedding invitation.
Right, it's the invitation itself, right yeah and the stories that you share about what you're gonna have there, right, and you're, I think you're being very, you know, thorough from the event for the pre event, the event, the post, event, communications, and I think this is the core theme for me, that I, what I love is this is customer obsession, right? You?
guys actually deliver customers. I'm sure people come back from year to year to year. I know I've seen the same the same sponsors now for for many years and they keep coming back and you know sharing their stories and exhibiting. So tell us a little bit about kind of the. Is this coming from you and like will and like the DNA that you just bring as as leaders?
0:19:08 - Alex Theuma
Yeah or select for this. I think it absolutely is. I guess you know come from the very first SaaStock which has come from my DNA. I mean, look, I over-invested in that first SaaStock. I had 12 months to think about it, which actually you don't need if you're putting on an event like SaaStock. We six months is really certainly the go-to-market time there. There is probably a 12 month cycle in some of the preparation, but you could put an event like SaaS together in six months. Whether it would be as good as SaaS or not, you know, I don't know, but that very first SaaS I over-invested and I thought about things like the beer mats and the branding of those, the flags that we would have there.
0:19:47 - Alex Shevelenko
Well, beer mats for Dublin. That's pretty important. You know that. That exactly.
0:19:53 - Alex Theuma
And and you know we had a pop out the back which was also pretty important for Dublin, and then we run, we run this Like founders retreat called SaaS society, so like founders, over five million revenue. That is you know the scaling to want scale to 100. The first SaaS society, maybe the first two years we used to get the. I spent a lot of money on invites when we would get them like printed out really nice paper and then we had our own wax seal to you know kind of fold the, the invitation. So it was like a wedding invitation, right, but uh, the SaaS doc version and again, like we don't do that now Because it also it's one of these things that has come off the pnl. But probably if I had my way right and if I wasn't managing the pnl right, then I would get these kind of things through. But they all add up right.
But I think that DNA and, as you also, they mentioned, you know, Jimi Hendrix, Woodstock, the rock and roll. We kind of wanted this, too. To not just be a boring B2B conference where you have meetings.
We want people to have felt that actually this was more than that, that actually I've almost been to, like, you know, a rock and roll event or a festival, you know, in Dublin, but it happened to be, all you know, SaaS founders and I've had a great time and you know, either maybe I'm like hungover on, you know, tired or whatever right, but I've had just such a memorable time, beyond all the value that I've got from that and and it comes from all of that, you know, attention to detail. So I think I think the DNA definitely Comes from me, but is has been transferred through to the teams of people like will and Racker and Joe and you know people that have been there for the five, six years you know in the company and they're carrying that and we'll hopefully, you know, carry that for for many more years to come amazing.
0:21:38 - Alex Shevelenko
Well, one part of the DNA is that you also attract amazing, you know, lead, innovative marketers, right, and then oftentimes the CEOs Of companies that are either sponsors or just guest speakers. So what are some of the trends that you see in talking to the creme de la creme Of the international SaaS community and maybe, like, let's divide it into the marketing teams yeah, right, that kind of and then maybe the their, their senior leadership, that that comes to speak, whether they're marketers or somebody else, yeah, what, what makes, uh, for a great SaaS marketing team that you kind of observe from your Interactions was was, you know, all the sponsors.
0:22:21 - Alex Theuma
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a good question. Look, and also, to be honest, I'm not really speaking to that many SaaS marketers myself these days, like generally, I'm more, like you know, helping out around the speaker front and you know, getting where we do have marketers as well, but you know largely more on the founder side and I guess, like the sales teams would largely be speaking with the marketers, who then, you know, having the budgets. But I guess the question like what, what makes a great, you know mass, mass marketing team? You know, kind of right now, it's super interesting, right, because I think, like, if we look and this is another trend, and you mentioned that in the podcast that SaaS has probably been going through a bit of a hard time, or certainly over the last year, after the crazy times of 2020 and 21,. We're kind of resetting and going back to 2019, you know kind of levels, but maybe a little bit above that.
I think, with that, the challenges for marketers have been that you, off, the marketing budgets are, you know, the first that are kind of slash and then, like you know, of the event budgets, slash the whole overall marketing budget slash. You can't buy the new technology that you know will help you, you know, as a marketer. So they have to have a lot of I think, the ones that are winning like a lot of creativity. They got to have a lot of resilience, right, I think, to obviously kind of get through when a lot of channels maybe are not available to them. So I think these are probably some of the things that you know we're probably seeing Like also, like the marketing team, like the CMO again, obviously it's the top job in marketing. It's also probably the hardest job. That always the top jobs, always the hardest jobs. Right, that's what you, you hear.
0:24:11 - Alex Shevelenko
But the CMOs do get fired quite a lot.
0:24:14 - Alex Theuma
They do. They do the tenure of a CMO like people, like SaaS companies or generally companies do not have patience on the CMO and I think it's tougher than a CRO or you know the sales leader and they tend to stick around less because they're getting fired. So I think the secret source and what I like we had the CEO of Musecom on on a recent podcast they just crossed 100 million ARR and they hired a CMO. I think when they're around about 10 million ARR and luckily or maybe it wasn't luck, right and maybe it was brilliant so whatever they got it right, that CMO is, I think, with them today. You know, five years later they're at 100 million ARR, right, and I think it's that importance of getting that higher right which so many of us do not get right. And similarly, I think you know Cognizant and you might know James Mescall, the.
0:25:09 - Alex Shevelenko
CEO.
0:25:09 - Alex Theuma
Cognizant . You know one, one big part of their success, of getting them to where they are today I don't know if they're 50, 60 million ARR was the hiring of Alice Well, I can't remember her last name, but they're there CMO right, and that's been pivoted on. So if you get that right, it can be so crucial for a SaaS business. But unfortunately, so many of us, you know, don't. So so, yeah, just some thoughts around that.
0:25:33 - Alex Shevelenko
And that may actually lead to the like CEO level folks, right, because I think one of the challenges for SaaS CMO right now, I would say, in the typical B2B businesses integrating, you know, plg and kind of middle out type of motion and where you have inside sales and then you know being able to expand that in the enterprise.
And then there is like a lot of channels, right, you're one of the channels, and then there's digital channels and we are a channel in some ways, right, and and so I think the the mental, mental complexity around keeping all that you know on a tactical level while still being able to execute, pull up and maybe have a creative brand strategy, because that's you know, you're obviously, you know, big on creating a branded experience for your clients, or that's that stands out. It feels like it just so many different personalities that need to be successful in integrating that and they just the depth of skill and you know that. So that feels like a challenge for any executive. But I wonder if you see, you know particular kind of in SaaS, just given the variety of sales motions, that that's actually like almost becoming, you know, very hard for one person to contain All the multitudes.
0:26:52 - Alex Theuma
What I've seen and like. I think, as we know, like when you, when you start a SaaS business maybe it's true in other businesses, but like this is where I've kind of learned about it. In SaaS, the key to success and getting to product market fit is usually really identifying that ICP, the ideal customer profile. Oten that ICP can evolve and change. But typically with our customers over the years, I would say maybe up until last year has been that this is the person that we sell to. We sell to the CEO of SaaS companies that are between 100 or 500, or we sell to the chief people officer of companies that are between, you know, 50 and 200. Right, and SaaS companies have been very clear on that.
Now, maybe because as the market has changed and people are finding certain budgets are closed and so on and so forth, I'm seeing now a lot of trend with a lot of our customers that we're selling to the CFO, but we're also selling to the CRO, we're also selling to the CMO and, like you know, do you have these personas and they're selling to multiple personas, which is then going to require multiple different types of messaging and you know then, for an event as well, like how do you get all of these people there that your customer wants to kind of meet, and you've got to give them like something for everybody in a real reason to come. So actually that's become a little bit more complex, I would say, for us and Perfect opportunity.
0:28:20 - Alex Shevelenko
Alex, you just have three boosts for one company and one for each persona.
0:28:26 - Alex Theuma
It must be complex for them and the marketing teams that all they've got all these different personas, now that they're, you know, the SaaS company is saying we've got to sell to all these people and it's like, okay, maybe you've widened the pool, but then that really affects that. You're the types of marketing in the persona based emailing and everything that you do in segmentation of your database and like all these things that you need to do, right, well, and I think that ultimately gets to, I think, why we were drawn to each other.
0:28:53 - Alex Shevelenko
It's like you want to create a personalized experience for your customers, right, and so sometimes that means that you're you know it's hard to know, right, like, yeah, I could be CMO but I could care about the end users because I know that's the problem. Or I could care about the ROI because I know that's the biggest problem. Most likely, I care about all, but then, like, how do you help me go on a journey, right, that allows me to to to have the right experiences and that's why your your events right? Like you help people discover the relevant materials. You know, that's why we partner together, because I think the future in that complex world is partially like, yes, we can have targeted messages, but then we also need to help people find their own adventure right and like, give them that option.
Any other tips that you know you have from pattern matching, what you see? You know you meet with all these CEOs. You interview them. You know, consider me. You know a sponge that wants to be, you know kind of absorbing all that. What would advice would you give to kind of a CEO like myself that's on their journey to 10 million AR. Like what are you seeing as the biggest kind of levers for us?
0:30:16 - Alex Theuma
It's a really good question. I think, like one thing and I think you know this and whether everybody else does that, that's kind of listening or kind of watching this that all of these people that you know the 400 episodes that are done on the podcast and eight years of speaking to all the founders and CEOs, that's, you know speak at SaaStok, whatever, all of the successful ones that have never done it on their own, you know, figured it all out by themselves, right, and it's kind of why SaaStock exists and it it sounds like it could be an obvious thing, right? But I know so many founders and but there's so many smart founders in SaaS that Don't go to events, right, you know, maybe they're like they've read all the stuff I heard it last week I've read all this content that's out there, like I don't need to read anymore, but that person happens to be, you know, stuck at 2 million ARR, right? So it's like, well, surely there is, there is more that you can do to kind of get out there like, be with other founders, learn about what's happening now, and you see, like you know, god, I'd able, like we've obviously spoken about him a couple of times and in the admiration for him. He's a three, four time you know exited entrepreneur, you know, had a few billion dollar exits, constantly learning, and is surrounding himself with a support network Both, you know, CEOs and coaches and other people that he needs to kind of help him succeed.
So I think it like it's very clear to me that what, when, when you get to a certain size and this could probably be, you know, maybe under 5 million ARR you really need to build that support network around you, both of like CEOs, maybe executive coaches you know, I don't know the CEO Sort of like team office or whatever, right, but I think. I think that's that that's clear and that's what, that's what's needed, and so definitely I would say that one and then, look, you've got to be probably ties into that, but super curious, really kind of you know focus and fixated on learning, because typically most people are learning as they go and I think that that's super important and then probably like, lastly, you know, customer obsessed, right, the customers hold the key to our success is we're always talking to our customers. Over the last six months we've learned so much from our customers, which is a big reason that we are now innovating. Or you know the SaaS dot, two, dot oh, which is going to come in Dublin. And if you don't speak to your customers, if you're not obsessed with them, then you're leading yourself down the wrong path. Sure, perfect.
0:33:05 - Alex Shevelenko
So for all those curious, Leaders in SaaS that are customer obsessed, that are always learning, at that want to build out a support network. There is SaaS stock. Where can people find you and go participate in this wonderful community that you've Co-created was other leading SaaS founders.
0:33:28 - Alex Theuma
Yeah, well, the easiest ways to go to saas.com and then you'll see, kind of. You know, the suite of events and content that we have in the podcast and the SaaS dot founder membership, so it's probably the best place. But people can also reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm, I think, Alexander Theuma on LinkedIn, if not Alex Theuma, I can't really remember right now but generally I'm sort of pretty active and responsive there. Less so on some of the other platforms, but but yeah, like either of those, we got SaaS USA coming up May 13 to the 15th in Austin going to be a great event. Like Austin also, you know, thinking about Customer experience.
We chose Austin, like after speaking to our customers and then visiting it and realizing, like what a fun, great city and the value that that's going to add to the overall conference. The same with Dublin. It's such a great place for our conference, which happens that, you know, in October as well. So it's, you know, a big reason that I would probably but don't quote me on this but probably never do a conference in London, because for me I just don't. I've never been to a good conference in London. It's too big, you know, you don't get that organized serendipity. People just leave the event and get swallowed up by the city and you know, I think, yeah, we've got to be deliberate about these things. But but yeah, that's a bit of insight there at the end as to why we chose Austin and Dublin.
0:34:51 - Alex Shevelenko
Amazing. Well, I hope everybody gets to experience the SaaS experience and I think for again, for all of those who also want to run their own event programs. You know, I think they could learn from you and the way you've deliberately created awesome events for your community, for your community. So, Alex, thank you again so much for joining us, sharing your expertise and being a beacon in the in the SaaS community, for sponsors, for founders, for investors. Keep up the good work.
0:35:24 - Alex Theuma
Thanks, it's easy to do when you found something that you love, right, and so it never feels like a day's work and, yeah, we'll keep on keeping on, thank you.