0:00:00 - Alex Shevelenko

Welcome to Experience-focused Leaders! I am delighted to introduce you to Barry LaBov, President and CEO of LaBov Marketing Communications and Training. Barry is a former rock musician. There are very few rock musicians that, as far as I know, have also received two-time Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award and been inducted into the Entrepreneur Hall of Fame. Also, Barry is the author of “Power Of Differentiation” book which is near and dear to my heart. Barry, welcome to the pod!

0:00:32 - Barry LaBov

Thank you, Alex! This is great. I'm looking forward to this and let's have a lot of fun!

0:00:38 - Alex Shevelenko

So one of the reasons we love having you on is we actually dug out one of your quotations that is basically music to our users and music to what our audience is looking for. And I'll quote you. You said, “Marry the message to the experience. The marketing and promotion should be congruent with the actual experiences the customer receives.” So let's dig into this and unpack this for our audience. How should we think about it?

0:01:17 - Barry LaBov

I think that's a great question. One thing that I think a lot of us don't realize is differentiation. That's a 15-letter, six-syllable word. It's like, “Oh my gosh, but we have to be differentiated in the marketplace, otherwise we're going to be forced into becoming a commodity.” And we don't want to do that because, Alex, you know this, I know this, your audience does, if you're forced into being a commodity, you really have only one way to go. And that is lower your price and then cut corners on everything you're doing. So we don't wanna do that.

I call it the commodity monster. The commodity monster will devour you because you can't please it. You've got to get cheaper, less interesting, lower quality and shove it out the door even if it's not ready. So we don't want that. We all don't want that. So your question is tremendous because you go, “Okay, but what about the experience?” This is what's amazing.

You can have a wonderful product, whether it's a truck, computer, whatever it is. But if the experience for the consumer or the owner of that product is bad, they will tell you your brand is bad. The consumer does not distinguish between the experience and the brand itself. If it's a lousy experience, your brand is terrible. I hate it, I'll never buy it. I'll tell everybody I know not to ever walk into that store again. So that's how important the experience is.

0:03:14 - Alex Shevelenko

This is music to my ears. Because when customers ask me, “Alex, what's your single three-letter word on what we should be paying attention to in our communications in particular?” My answer is that experience is the message. And it's a riff on Marshall McLuhan where he said, “The medium is the message.” But I think that's older because everybody's using these mediums, right? 

The thing that people are going to remember is the experience of consuming that message. And the experience comes before the product. The traditional saying is, “You judge the book by the cover.” I think what we are effectively saying is you judge a lot of things by the experience that you anticipate you'll get out of it. And so you come up with a commodity-looking thing that everybody else delivers in a commodity way. You're just lost in the noise.

0:04:52 - Barry LaBov

If we use an example, let's say it's an auto manufacturer and it's a great brand, a brand that we aspire to. Let's say that they have 800 different salespeople at their 200 different dealerships. Well, do they have one overall experience or do they have maybe 800 experiences? And when you have 800 or even 200 different experiences, that's a mess. Think about how many times a customer will walk into that dealership, as an example, and let's say the salesperson is terrible. They don't pay attention to them, they're condescending, they don't even know the product that they're trying to sell. And that customer walks out and goes, “I'll never buy that product and I'll tell everybody else to never buy that product.” Now the people sitting at corporate who built a car don't even know this happened. They think they built this masterpiece and somebody who was not trained, who did not believe or have the passion, just destroyed the image of that product forever in the hearts and minds of that consumer.

0:06:12 - Alex Shevelenko

And I think, to your point, it could even be that the vehicle is great, the ad campaign, that Super Bowl is amazing, super creative. But then there's the touch points, like in terms of interactions.

You're doing some research and it's like, “This is the future of the futures!” Then you actually dig into it, you need to download a bunch of PDFs and you're on your phone. And there's a discongruence between “We are the future, we are innovation, we're better experience” and “Welcome to 1990s format. That is great for print.” But it's not like we're shoving it in front of you in digital and you're doing this little thing on your phone to try to experience this car, which should be a video or reusing that advertising. And then enable that sales rep, like in your case, to feel what they're selling. To be on brand, with that message and with the vision that you're projecting.

0:07:43 - Barry LaBov

I think one thing to share with the audience is sometimes, as we work with companies on their experience, they feel like, “Oh my gosh, we cannot make a mistake or we've lost a customer, and it means our experience is terrible!” And I'll just tell you that's not true. Customers will be very forgiving. They're not looking for perfection but they do want sincerity and respect. You know, if a woman walks into a certain store and somebody says, “Well, honey, I'll wait for your husband to come in”, that's disrespectful, right? So that's something that's bad.

Now, if you have a complex product, I've got news for you. It's probably going to break down or have a flaw here or there because it's complex. All of us are very forgiving of that. We're just not forgiving of being treated poorly. So when there's an error, part of the experience needs to be, “Hey, wait a minute, I'm owning up to it, let me fix it. Hey, Alex, I'll be right over, we'll get that thing fixed. Hey, I got you on the schedule, we'll make sure we get this fixed for you.”

Well, all of a sudden you're going, “You know what? I love that guy. He's amazing. This brand is great.” So it's not about perfection. And that's what we call “the perfect trap”. Because you fall into this trap thinking, “Oh my gosh, if we make a mistake, if the product isn't perfect, we're gone.” And it's not that. It has to be in sync with your brand. If we are a high-tech brand, are we giving you a high-tech experience? Or, like you said, is it a 1990s experience? Yet we have this space-age brand.

0:09:26 - Alex Shevelenko

Yeah, and I love that you brought up this topic. I think one of the favorite quotes that we found from your body of work is, “Don't confuse differentiation with perfection.” This is so true. I would say I'm a little bit guilty of it myself. I come out of some academic pedigree where they try to drill into you that you need to get the right things.

As an entrepreneur, I've learned that there are some areas where you can't cut corners, but on the whole, it's the spirit, authenticity and congruence. So I love it. And also there are imperfections. What we're finding is the imperfections are actually an opportunity to build a stronger relationship. Because when everything goes super smoothly, it may not be noticeable. It may be great and efficient, but it may not be noticeable. The moment of truth is when you have a problem.

0:10:58 - Barry LaBov

Right, Alex, that's so brilliant! I hope your audience really takes note of what you said, because when there is an issue, that is your opportunity to prove hey, hey, I care, hey, I'm here, I will make sure this is right. You're actually building a relationship and there are statistics out there where, as you said this, if you have a product that's let's say, it's a utility company, how many of us are in love with the electric company?

0:11:26 - Alex Shevelenko

I mean none of us.

0:11:28 - Barry LaBov

Why? Because we just expect the lights to go on. I mean, who cares? Right, so it's working, and almost all the time it works and we go. Okay, fine, who cares? That's not what we create in our minds, is what we think of as loyalty. That's not loyalty. That's a utilitarian thing, that's okay. But when there is an issue, that's a utilitarian thing, that's okay. But when there is an issue, statistically it has been found that the customer, if that issue is solved, will become more loyal, more likely to repeat business with you. So what you said is exactly right we have to make it clear that we care, we will solve it, and we don't have to try to pretend or aspire to be perfect. Have to make it clear that we care, we will solve it, and we don't have to try to pretend or aspire to be perfect.

0:12:13 - Alex Shevelenko

Yeah, and I think the key here and it really relates to the services that you're offering is that who is doing that in the front lines? Right, it's not, you know, sometimes it's you or sometimes it's me, but we're here. I'm using this podcast actually as a way that's consistent with the brand or it's in the delivery of the product or service. And you had this great quote in there. That is that, as a business leader, part of the differentiation is obviously about sales and market share. But you believe it's even more important that, as a business leader, you can use that differentiation to get the hearts and minds of your team, because they are joining you on the journey of building this truly differentiated company. This super resonated with me. Do you mind unpacking that a bit further for our audience? And because everybody understands the differentiation for sales, resonate. That was me. Do you mind unpacking that a bit further for our audience? Because everybody understands the differentiation for sales and capturing market share, but for the team, I think the relationship is a little bit less obvious.

0:13:40 - Barry LaBov

I'd love to unpack it. It's my Passion, what you just shared. The subtitle of my book is Win Hearts, minds and Market Share and if you really think about it, that's the order. We have to look at how we express what makes us unique. We've got to win the hearts of our people and their minds. They also have to say, okay, I'm moved emotionally, but you know what, this really is smart. And then you know what we're going to get our customers. We're going to get the people who really will be buying our product. Here's what's important.

If we talk about experience, which is so important, let's just think for a moment here how likely is it, whether you have a great product or not, that if you do not share the magic of the product, if you do not explain the why and the how behind it, and if you do not celebrate that with the very people who have built it or represent it, why do we think, why do any of us in the audience think that that person or those people will present an experience that has passion? They're disenfranchised. They're just selling something that some suits or some guys in lab coats put together and shipped out to them. We have to realize that today more than ever in our history. It is very easy for people to walk off a job.

It's very easy to become skeptical of what your company does or what they represent, and it is a fact. People need significance, and I connect the fact that if we can give somebody significance in what they do, there is a meaning behind what you do, and the reason you do blank and blank is because our company is focused on such and such, and this is why we do it. So when you work with our customers, you're not just selling something or taking an order. You're helping them understand blank, or you're helping their lives to be better, and you play a major role in this. Staying blank, or you're helping their lives to be better, and you play a major role in this. I guarantee that individual will provide a far better and meaningful experience.

0:15:55 - Alex Shevelenko

This is so interesting. So I wasn't timing, wasn't planned for this, but we literally just redesigned and refreshed our mojo at my company, RELAYTO, and to run this by you, if you like, as a total thought experiment and get a critique. Uh, because I think we've come, uh to the same view and we are privileged to be in a digital and software product where everybody can really contribute, right from qa, from uh you know, building you know to building a platform, but then adapting that platform to specific you know, marketer, sales, communication solutions, all the way to the customer. So we're pretty fortunate, but it's still work, um, and so we wanted to codify this and you know there's values like we could get into that further, but mojo is a little bit of fun, so I'm going to screen share for the audience that's on uh youtube really quickly um, this, this particular image that sits inside our career section, and um, we try to create it like as an inspirational sports brand. You could probably recognize adidas stripes here, but it's, it's around like obviously work, but we've added consciously the word consciously, right, like we believe in conscious leadership and becoming more aware, sharing fuller part of ourselves, and we wanted to encode that together was work smart, because historically it's been in startups work hard, push, push, push.

But I think that this is one of the levers and then, interestingly, the the customers come second. Right, they don't come first. The way we work will determine, uh, the customer impact. But we really do want that, wow. And if we do that, if we do this legendary work and do great things with the customers, we happen to, you know, make an impact. And for us, because our product is in the publishing and reimagining the publications, we do believe in writing history, but ultimately this could be that's the ultimate impact only happens when you do these things right. That's sort of the theme behind it. What do you think about this and critique it and guide us if this is catchy enough and applied enough in your view? You're the expert here.

0:18:18 - Barry LaBov

Well, here are some things I think it's great and here's what I like about it. First of all, you're showing humans. So think about how many websites you go on there are showing humans. So think about how many websites you go on there are no humans. And if you see humans, they're somewhere in the background. They look messy, they don't look like they are loving what they're doing, all right. So you go to websites you don't even know humans work there or there's anything to do with humanity.

Another thing that you did here that's really good is you're giving meaning and you can put it right there. Imagine you can find meaning and joy at work. Okay, meaning, very, very critical. What you also do here that's really good is you start with the right segment, which is the employee, as you said. If we do not realize our employees are most important, we're making a mistake. I just worked with a really fine accounting firm. I said that to them, they looked at me and said, “What do you mean? The customer is more important.” I go, “If your employees are not buying into the mission, they're not taking care of the customers.” They have to buy into the mission and your customers love your employees. Not buying into the mission. They're not taking care of the customers. They have to buy into the mission. And your customers love your employees. Right, they go? Yeah, I go. Your employees are most important. There's not even a question. And they went. We never thought of it like that. I said, yeah, I'm not trying to be a nice guy, it's just reality. So you showed it right there. The people are first. And here's the final thing. I'll say that I think is great.

I have a customer it's in my book. That really inspired me and we were meeting each other for the first time and I said, well, what do you want to do? What do you want to do with this project? Because you know, he's this kind of boisterous guy and I'm thinking I don't know. I mean, this is a new customer here. I don't know, I don't get. I said, really. He said, yeah, I want to take my brand and I want to do something that has never been done before. And he said we're doing pretty good as a brand. But he said I want to make history. And I have to tell you what you put there about writing history, which is making history. Let's write, let's rewrite history. Here's what that does, Alex. This is the beauty of what you did there. That makes your goal and your vision bigger than one person. It's bigger than a person. Think about this as your people. They look at this.

It doesn't say make sure you do a really good job because Alex wants you to Think of other companies. Make sure you do a really good job so our stockholders make more money off your hard work. We're saying, hey, that's all good stuff, those are all nice results. You know what? Let's do something historically great. Let's do something that has never been done before. All right, that's a higher calling. So what you're doing there is really ticking off all the boxes of what's needed. The employee is first. Wowing, inspiring the customer is next. Not taking the order from the customer. You've got to wow them. You've got to think beyond what they know.

0:21:29 - Alex Shevelenko

It's the experience, it's what we were talking about.

0:21:32 - Barry LaBov

It's exactly it.

0:21:33 - Alex Shevelenko

And then we've got to do something that is incredible, that we are inspired by as well as the customer, and that is let's make history you know, the book is this 500 year old for iconic document format that sort of conveys human knowledge and we're personalizing it and making it, you know, cross media, and so it's appropriate for us in multiple levels.

But I agree with you that I think the best companies, the best teams are taking it as a calling and they're, they're kind of there and it's just life was. You know I unfortunately, I think religion plays, uh, not as much of a role, uh, in our lives. National, national identities are divided oftentimes and I think one of the opportunities that we have is to imbue our work with meaning, whether our product writes history or, you know, we help our customers write their histories right, like there could be multiple connections, but I think this is life worth living and we even have a goal of having a hundred year company because we want it to be a legacy of impact. So is that what you're seeing? Some of the best, the most differentiated brands as well, they kind of have this epic impact, long-term impact, describe from the book. Where do you see that connection to the changing the world through this differentiation paradigm that you're?

0:23:19 - Barry LaBov

introducing? That's a great question the very best brands that you think about. Yes, they have goals that go beyond the next quarter's earnings on Wall Street. They go well beyond that. They have a purpose, they have a reason, they do what they do and, as you said earlier, it doesn't mean they claim to be perfect, because differentiation is not perfect, is not a superiority, it's. This is what we do, this is how we do it and why, and this is the experience we deliver, and it may not be perfect, and I guarantee you it will not be perfect for everybody, but it may not be perfect for this company or that company or that customer.

So the idea is we have to have a purpose greater than one person or so-called us. It's got to be making a difference, because people today, as you said, whether it's regarding religion, politics or whatever, it's a skeptical world, and the leader of the company is usually positioned as evil or incompetent or a very interesting combination of both, which is a tough one. And so what we have to realize is the leaders, those of us that are leaders. We're not here to be served, we are here to serve, and the first line of serving we have is our employees, because they need to figure that they're here for a really good purpose, right? And if they don't believe in that, then again I said a few minutes ago then why should they care? Why should they do a good job?

So the best brands and they don't have to be large brands, the best brands say look, it's not about us. We have a vision and a calling to do something that we really believe in, that we're excited by, and we have lit that fire of passion in our employees. And you're going to feel it Now. We're not going to be perfect. We'll make mistakes, but we will be humble and we will make sure they're rectified. But we're here to help you. We're here to help your life be better, and that's what gives us significance.

0:25:31 - Alex Shevelenko

What an amazing wrap up for our audience, Barry. You lit the fire for me and for our audience. Where can people find you, learn more about the book and get going on this journey?

0:25:45 - Barry LaBov

Well, I'd love people to join me on the journey. My goal is I want to move the hearts and minds of 1 million people with our message. 1 million people and that's not that many people. We're going to surpass that goal. We're working with one company that has 16,000 people and we're going to help really inspire that entire network that they have.

So the best way to reach me is go to my company's website, which is labov.com. Go to my personal site, barrylabov.com. Reach out to me, give me a message, ask me something, sign up to learn about the upcoming book which is called The Power of Differentiation. It's going to go into pre-order within a few weeks. We will not send you an invoice for it, we'll just let you know it's going into pre-order if you're interested. But reach out to us. There are a few free documents we'll let you download. But we're here to make a difference and if we don't work with a company, but they're helped, that's part of our mission. We've helped change the world a little better. Maybe we moved a few thousand people for that organization. That's how we roll. Yeah, a few thousand people for that organization.

0:26:57 - Alex Shevelenko

That's how we roll, amazing, Barry. Well, thanks so much for inspiring us and sharing your message of being different and inspiring to the team to be different and connect to the overall mission and vision of the business.