0:00:01 - Alex Shevelenko

Welcome to Experience-focused Leaders! I'm excited to introduce you to a marketing tech leader. Daniel Melkersson is a former CEO and is now a Board Member of PinMeTo. PinMeTo is a location marketing platform for multi-location enterprises, including Starbucks, DHL, H&M, 7-Eleven, Volvo, Hertz, you name it. If you're in retail, you will know some of their customers. Daniel, welcome to the pod!

A couple of fun things. We love interviewing B2B marketers, B2B sales leaders, B2B CEOs, and founders like yourself. And one of the things that people don't typically associate with B2B is the cool factor — you're the ultimate opposite of B2B! In your earlier career, you were a band member. You're specialized in surfing and skateboarding. You ran an experience agency. Tell us about how you make B2B fun, and the history of doing all these fun things earlier in your life and career.

0:01:23 - Daniel Melkersson

I think it's because I always said to myself, “You never get too old to suck at something new.” And so I always try to do new things that I haven't done before and see what happens.

So that's why I have 12 companies behind me and I think only three succeeded. That's how it is. And this time around, when we started PinMeTo 10 years ago, it was more self-funded, or funded with other people I had started things with. I wanted to do it with technology, build it with other developers, and start the companies with developers. Because I've never done that, and I also wanted to understand how VC money works. I wanted to know what it was like to start with someone else's money. We didn't have any idea what to do. And then I had this experience agency before, as you said. We had some customers within the tourism industry and so on. We said, “Okay, let's see if we can build some tech here!” So we started there.

0:02:25 - Alex Shevelenko

Yeah, it sounds like you succeeded. So the brands that you work with are the who is who in the retail industry and multi-location space universe. In our experience in larger companies, it's hard to break into some of these names, and certainly, you started as a startup. So what have you learned about building relationships? And also, your company is not based in Silicon Valley, you're based in Sweden. While Sweden is known for generating great outcomes, it may not be as easy in some cases to be seen as an enterprise software leader from Sweden. So I'd love to hear some of the challenges you have had on that journey and the reasons you have been successful.

0:03:15 - Daniel Melkersson

First of all, I think it's the classic word – grit. Never give up. So there's only one way to go: either you completely screw this up or you succeed really well. And that's what I did. I pretty much left everything else. So that's the first thing, to really focus.

I think what we did, and what's a good thing about Sweden and smaller countries in general, is that first make sure that you're something on your home market. We did the same thing when I started a band. Back then we were from a really small city with 30,000 people living in it, and then we said, “Ok, let's make sure that everybody in the age group that we are attracting with the kind of music we do will come to our concert.” And if we can do that, we can probably do the same thing in other cities around Sweden. And we did the same thing with PinMeTo. We made sure that we nailed what's in Sweden. So at first, we made sure, as you said, we're working with multi-location chain businesses.

So we started with the ones that are famous brands in Sweden, not global, not outside Sweden, just in Sweden. And we tried to get them on board. We got an investor on board there, an industrial investor that owns quite a lot of these, a group that owns quite a lot of grocery stores and stuff like that. So we got them as investors and then we could get into this. Even if they were big brands, we got in the back door because they invested in the company as well. So we nailed that. We got all really big brands quite fast.

We got a well-known brand in Sweden within three years with hard work, sales, negotiations, investments, and so on, and then we thought, “Okay, let's do the same thing globally. What's the easiest way to do that? Let's see if we can get the big globally known brands in their head office in Sweden.” We focused on them. So I think I had 40-50 meetings with different people at H&M.

0:05:10 - Alex Shevelenko

My kids love H&M, so thank you. They would shop at H&M anywhere. It sounds like you're bringing consistent experience across markets there. But H&M would have been life and death for you, right? Because you go global. Fortunately, Sweden is great for retail businesses. But in general, there are only so many global Swedish brands, and H&M was just going to be the success.

0:05:43 - Daniel Melkersson

Yeah, it's the superstar within the industry we are approaching. So I was just, “I have to get this!”

0:05:52 - Alex Shevelenko

And you had to do it as a CEO kind of founder. You had more heft to go and break into. So 40-50 meetings. Did you feel like this was a traditional enterprise sales process or it was more just strategic? “Founder, we're going to build this together with you” type of approach that you've taken? In my experience, sometimes it was the larger organizations that we've been fortunate enough to work with. Traditional selling didn't work as well. What has been your kind of lesson in breaking through?

0:06:31 - Daniel Melkersson

In the early days, I was the sales guy. We were building the product for product market fit. It was only us three for the first one and a half two years because we tried a little bit of different things before we nailed it. Then we hired another salesperson who was quite similar to me, and I knew if I said, “Okay, run in this direction, try to close deals with these brands”, I knew that he would be the kind of person who would figure it out, and he's still around, so amazing that he is. And then we had some more people growing like that. But then, of course, after a few years in, we started building a process. So now we have SDRs, we have quota carriers that hand over to onboarding, CS, and so on. We have a much more scalable and structured sales process. But since we're approaching big companies, our outbound compared to inbound is 80-20. 80% of everything we close.

0:07:34 - Alex Shevelenko

It's a pure to more enterprise sales approach. Even in the markets where you're well-known, you can't just sit there and wait for people to reach out to you. No, no, no. And that's interesting because you focused on a classical model. People say when you focus, you get some sort of a market effect. You started by focusing first on the retail segments. You still needed to do mostly outbound.

0:08:04 - Daniel Melkersson

We needed to because we're reaching out to big companies, but also we are selling to marketing people and they usually make decisions as a team. Or we talk to a head of digital that has another boss and so on. And what we sell very often needs a meeting for them to understand that they have the pain. Not so much now because the market is more educated, but as with every startup, to become something, you need to be there in time. So very early on we had to educate the market as well. I think we could do more within inbound now, but we have a really good outbound engine and it's safer for us to scale that way.

0:08:45 - Alex Shevelenko

So you're in marketing and sales for your company. You sell to marketers, right? Sometimes, that's one of our segments as well. What have you found great about selling to marketers? And what do you find that you hate about selling to marketers? Let's say, for our early discussion of the differences between Sweden and Denmark, let you be the Danish person in this answer.

Daniel lives in Malmö, which is just a bridge across Copenhagen and Denmark. I have a lot of experience with some great Danish and Swedish folks. It's very close, but there is a culture of directness in Denmark.

0:09:37 - Daniel Melkersson

So we want the direct, no bullshit, okay you want the Danish answer from a Swedish person yeah, okay, I'll try.

0:09:42 - Alex Shevelenko

So selling to marketers is great in that way because you and they are conversational, Danish.

0:09:45 - Daniel Melkersson

Answer from a Swedish person yeah, okay, I'll try. Selling to marketers is great because they are conversational, they like to discuss and they like to talk about it. And there’s usually a lot of feelings involved. It's so much easier to talk to a tech person because they just want to know what they can do with it. So the nice thing is that it's always a fun sales process, but it takes a little bit longer time because they are a team. It's not that they are just buying this little feature that's going to fix this little thing for me when I work. It's something that's going to fix something for the whole company and the whole marketing team. Multiple chains.

0:10:20 - Alex Shevelenko

And in your case, is it just marketers that are making the buying decision or do they also need to get the store decision-makers, like store-level folks, involved?

0:10:32 - Daniel Melkersson

We sell to the head office in 90% of the cases, sometimes in franchises. They want to have it paid from different markets, but it's the head office that buys, so it's always the head office listed buys, so it's always the head office. But then there are there might be a lot of stakeholders to get involved, to do the deal, because they are. For example, we had H&M as an example. There are 5,000 stores scattered all over the world. There are stakeholders involved, but we're trying to push that close the deal and say, hey, you need to start from the top and you set up the structure and then you involve the market. So whoever is responsible afterwards?

0:11:07 - Alex Shevelenko

Right.

0:11:09 - Daniel Melkersson

We'll do that in onboarding. So we are trying not to prolong the sales process but by having too many involved from the customer.

0:11:17 - Alex Shevelenko

So the positive side is easy to talk to the hard side, long time to talk to anything else?

0:11:24 - Daniel Melkersson

They are very visual. That is something we see. So, for example, we're selling their online presence, so we can just do screenshots. So, okay, you don't have opening hours for your stores in Spain, for example, and we see that on all your Google business profiles, then we can just do screenshots and discuss that, and that works so much better than say written in text or whatever trying to explain the benefits of our product so we can just show them in graphic.

0:11:53 - Alex Shevelenko

Show, not tell. So show no, yeah, it works with. That means you have to work a little bit harder and have a more visually-centric sales process.

0:11:58 - Daniel Melkersson

Yeah, we need a lot of quality in the sales process, which to me can't. It's gonna be really easy. Quality is that you talk about the customer. You don't talk about you. You don't talk about how great you are or what other customers you work with. You can do that in one slide. Then we always do that: we put in the customer's logo and then from here on we're just going to talk about you. And when SDRs book meetings, they find something to talk about the customer, not saying just, “Hey, we're here, where are you?” I want the meeting.

0:12:28 - Alex Shevelenko

Look at how pretty we are. So they find a challenge. They find the store in Spain that's missing the office hours and say, hey, did you know this? They screenshot it and then they go here's how, ok. Ok, so show the problem and then talk about it in the way that the people care about Anything else the problem, and then talk about it in the way that the people care about anything else.

0:12:46 - Daniel Melkersson

It's exactly what you said there, because a lot of people and a lot in sales training, in marketing schools and stuff, they say, “Don't talk about the customer's problem.” I don't believe in that at all. You should focus 100% on their pain and their problem, and just push it in their face. Sorry to say, I know sometimes we have an issue. I still don't have Ikea, which is one of the largest Swedish brands that I need to have before I close down my part in PinMeTo, and very early on, the problem was that we showed so many problems that they have done so. The person we tried to sell to felt shame in front of their boss. Yeah, yeah, we were in a physical meeting this was before COVID, so there were physical meetings as well and I saw that person falling to the floor like you really don't, yeah, yeah, and that ended up in not in a good way actually, because it turned into an internal issue and they've been discussing for years now and those not making the buying decisions. So it can.

0:13:44 - Alex Shevelenko

Also, you were too Danish, I was too Danish selling to Swedish yeah, and I think this is interesting because you brought up the issue of consensus right and for those that are maybe not as familiar with European markets, so there's a history in Sweden that Sweden has a reputation where decisions are made by consensus. Yeah, and then you brought up that marketers also like to get more consensus and more buy-in. So how much do you think is? That was experience and obviously, you sold in Sweden, but you're in like 120 countries.

We're talking, yeah we have customers in 120 countries. I'm really curious about the consensus culture and selling in the consensus-driven culture, selling in cultures where you need to shake things up a little bit. Have you seen the difference when you went away from Swedish market to other markets in terms of how you go to market and how you sell?

0:14:48 - Daniel Melkersson

We use the same process for selling, but one thing that we've seen really important, especially in Europe, is that we see a lot better pro progress if we sell. The person that are selling is not necessarily living in the country they're selling to, but are born and have the language skills that are needed, that have the like, the culture the cultures of selling.

We built, we have. Our largest sales office is in Gdansk, in Poland, but I think we have I don't know how many nationalities, but there's a lot of nationalities at that office that are selling you basically found a location that's reasonably affordable.

0:15:30 - Alex Shevelenko

But then you could. But it has to have an international presence enough where people can be, and so Ireland, Dublin, used to be like that hub for many European companies, where you could find Ziffrange and Deutsche and et cetera. And why did you pick Gdansk in?

0:15:48 - Daniel Melkersson

Particular, because there were no players doing what we're doing in Poland, and Poland is a much larger country than you might think and it's a country with a lot of chains in it, because chain business is a thing, so we started selling there.

0:16:04 - Alex Shevelenko

We had one person. Initially it was just a sales opportunity and then you said, hey, we like these folks. They hustle. It's a great area.

0:16:14 - Daniel Melkersson

There's three cities sitting next to each other and there's a lot of universities, a lot of international people living there. Google has a big office there as well, and so on, and it's a 45-minute flight, or you take a boat from where we are in Malmö, so it's very close for us as well if we want to travel between.

0:16:34 - Alex Shevelenko

Got it. That's really helpful, all right, so what other? Again, some of your customers are the envy of folks selling in B2B, but I think they're like you said, they're marketers in really sophisticated consumer brands. They are being pitched by agencies like yourself in the past lives, myself in my past life who are desperate to put that brand on their logo.

Agencies have an unfortunate, I think, history of doing work for free and marketers sometimes take advantage of that, and so then you're selling software, enterprise software. It obviously takes more to deploy and I've seen sometimes people a little bit confused, like the agents, the marketing buyers. They want to treat software vendors a little bit like an agency. Hey, do this pilot, do this test, support this campaign? I'm curious if you've seen that and it's almost like these guys, these agencies, are going to just go and they don't know how to sell themselves particularly well, go and create a bad set of bad habits for everybody. Uh, that's my at least perception. Tell me, like, what have you seen and how have you managed to compete with free or do nothing in some cases in this environment?

0:18:01 - Daniel Melkersson

Yeah, we don't do that. If we do a pilot, it's a paid one because there are connections that need to be done. There's a lot of work because we have API connections to a lot of different large search maps and social media networks, so all of that needs to be set up. So there's a lot of different large search maps and social media networks, so all that needs to be set up. So there's a lot of work in the beginning for everything to work forever. So we explain that to the customer and there's a lot of work. If they want to do a pilot, we say okay, let's do a pilot in this country then, and because you're in 18 others and you discount the pilots a little bit, or are they still like?

How do you manage the we? There's friction, right, we usually don't discount and we say, okay, but let's take a lower number of your number of stores or whatever location it might be. You do it by location, got it? Yeah, then we usually suggest to do a market so it's a full market, and say, hey, can we do this? Let's do the case only for that market.

0:18:52 - Alex Shevelenko

For example, do you compete with agencies that are willing to go do little crazy stuff that doesn't scale or not really, but you're unique enough where it doesn't come up for you the smart agencies and the larger agencies.

0:19:06 - Daniel Melkersson

They work for their customers in PinMeTo. They use PinMeTo to achieve local SEO. Some agencies feel threatened. Performance agencies say, oh, if they have this tool they don't need that many hours from us, but that's on them. It usually turns out that we because we always approach the end customer and when we work with an agency it's just because the end customer asks us to more or less. And then sometimes for big media agency networks, they tend to start liking us and then they introduce us, which is great. But our aim goal is always to try to have an agreement with the end customer and then we're more than happy to have agencies working for them in the platform and we don't care if they charge.

0:19:50 - Alex Shevelenko

Guide me a little bit like when you were building out your platform, right, and you had an agency beforehand you built out your platform. Did you try to go to agencies at the very beginning as a kind of reselling co-selling partner, or did you go directly to brands?

0:20:12 - Daniel Melkersson

I've learned that before PinMeTo that I don't go to agencies for partnerships. I go to other partners in that case, so I call them soft and hard partners. A soft partner is agencies that's selling their time by the hour. More like a hard partner is another tech platform that has a technology that's complement hours, and I think that kind of partnerships usually works out much better, because the problem with agencies is that they go where they can catch the most of the hours and our whole idea is to give the customer possibility.

You're going to view the efficiencies yeah efficiencies, so they don't have to spend all those hours because we built the tech. Instead, they pay for the tech.

0:20:49 - Alex Shevelenko

So no, we haven't done that For you agencies are part of the ecosystem because they're embedded and they need to deliver it. Yeah, and sometimes they will not resist it, but you're not going through them. You're going to the brand and you're educating them and you're saying, hey, look, get your agency to do and work on more value-added stuff than the plugs. Is that kind of a?

0:21:13 - Daniel Melkersson

Yeah, that's usually how it works. We love the agencies and I think they appreciate us as well, because they can deliver a lot of value to their end customers with the tech we have and they still can make money because they actually do their job for them and they can create more visual reports or whatever they want to do, and so on. It's hopefully a win for most agencies we work with.

0:21:35 - Alex Shevelenko

Got it. Listen, let's do a quick round of questions. One of the quotes that we picked up when researching your background it was an interesting one where you said something at a Tekpon which, by the way, we love those guys podcast about listening to investors and said don't listen too much to other people, especially not investors about advice and how to grow your business. It's your company. So I think one of the things that you deal with as an entrepreneur and you're a serial entrepreneur in this is you get this feedback whiplash right and some people with best intentions tell you. Daniel, you should really do this and other people tell you you should do this, and some of them could be investors, some of them could be well-wishers, some of them could be future investors, and it's great. 

In some ways, I would say, when you're running your thing, you're very close to it, you're a little too close. So some third party, a little bit more objective perspective, does help. But ultimately, how did you navigate that you have investors? You've reached a scale? Where did you find that external advice helpful and where did you find that you just needed to ignore it?

0:22:55 - Daniel Melkersson

I think, the most helpful thing from investors. We have both VCs and one agent investor. The best thing they have done is introduce you to people that you couldn't reach yourself because of their network, if I'm going to be 100% honest. And then, of course, knowledge when it comes now and we're a bit bigger, running a board, making sure we handle everything accordingly. But there's also been investors that say, oh, you should go to this tech event, you should go there and raise more money, you should do this, you should do that, and and we did it maybe once but I think when they start doing that, you should do this right, like either help me with something practical or go.

0:23:36 - Alex Shevelenko

You're not an operator, it's cheap. You're like execution is where the value is. Can you deliver? Okay, great advice. What else did you do in terms of? We talked a little bit about enterprise, like being more sales-led initially, and now still, what else are you doing in terms of your own growth? That surprised you, something that you didn't think you would be doing, but you've tried it and it works really well and it sounds like the dunks. Being a sales hub is like one of those things that you weren't planning on day one to be prominent there.

0:24:12 - Daniel Melkersson

Yeah, no, I think we've done a lot of those things actually, and I think one of the things you need to do is take risks, but do it smart. Make sure that the risk is like when you buy a lottery ticket. Or if you buy a few lottery tickets every year, make sure it's money you can waste and make sure that you have that kind of money in your company if you want to grow. Because you need to take some opportunities from time to time, and some of them has been bad surprises and then some of them has been bad surprises and then some of them have been really nice, like the Gdansk. We have started to see if we can get my business in Poland and now we have an office with 40 people doing different things in different areas of the companies from an office, and it's great. It's been a big success.

We're doing the same thing when we move into different countries. We start small. We find a good entrepreneurial person, set up and close the first deals and then we move from that. So I think the big surprise is that you don't really need to plan for everything all the time. Don't plan ahead, just go out, do and make sure you have money to do it and try it live, push it live. Developers say we push live.

0:25:19 - Alex Shevelenko

So go experiment, not do much planning. You don't have, you're not H&M, you don't have that many stores to no, we don't have.

0:25:29 - Daniel Melkersson

I don't think any company, especially that tries to grow fast from and are not super big, can afford to have a lot of people just sitting down doing slides and plan for stuff and so now tell me this right, like you're in Europe, you're clear European DNA, like European sales hubs, you're glow.

0:25:47 - Alex Shevelenko

You've managed to grow globally. You have global brands. How do you compete with, let's say, American companies and there are a few in your world that are in location marketing services? Some of them are reaching unicorn status as well. How do you see your competitive edge and where do you go head to head and where do you try to go not head to head? As a software, software seller, with some constraints, I would say, relative to unlimited funding, go big or go home.

0:26:19 - Daniel Melkersson

Silicon Valley style company, yeah no, yeah, we never been like that. We never did down the seed A round, B round. We didn't do that. We raised money, we had something to use it for and on our home market, which I will say is the EU and UK, there are actually regulations that the American companies have issues with, GDPR and so on. So that's been beneficial for us lately because we have a lot of customers.

0:26:45 - Alex Shevelenko

They're just not savvy enough to nail the data privacy.

0:26:50 - Daniel Melkersson

Exactly. ISO certifications needed and so on. So we focus quite a lot on that, but that is not helping us on a global market. I think what we do well is that we build a very efficient company on a global market. I think what we do well is that we build a very efficient company. We're quite little. We didn't raise much money at all. If you compare it to Silicon Valley, they would say we haven't even raised money. So we have built an efficient company so we can have a good pricing. We also build a bigger customer success organization, I think, than most other tech companies in our industry. So companies tend to stay around because they get the help they need. We often say that we are not software as a service, but more like service as software, because service is really important. But we still sell the software and we don't charge for the service. But you need to remember that service is important if you want customers.

0:27:37 - Alex Shevelenko

And for your case, it's because there's just the teams are understaffed. They have thousands of stores, right, If you could remove some of the hassle of some manual thing that they need to do during onboarding, for example. It's a do it once type of service, but then it reduces the friction and the customers stick around. Is that how you're thinking about it?

0:27:59 - Daniel Melkersson

Yeah, exactly that's how we think about it okay, so when?

0:28:03 - Alex Shevelenko

so then, but back to us you're. Are you using some sort of clever guerrilla, the underdog tactics to break in to the more competitive markets, or are you just sticking to your knitting that, hey, like we're customers are happy we have these global. Global, like European HQ brands originally that's what we're doing.

0:28:27 - Daniel Melkersson

To be completely honest, I don't know if my CEO will agree when I say this, but we're going to focus on head offices in more Europe. We're also getting strong in the EU and so on. But my view on the US always for a European company either you are so big and you have the money to buy a smaller company like a competitor or similar company in the US and you grow with that, or you get picked up by an American company in the end as a European player. I've seen so many of my friends trying to do the start. They were just going to move over the head of sales and one of the founders. They're going to start in the US and then they pour a lot of money into it and it fails.

I also seen success. Of course we have from Sweden, we have Skype from back in the day, Spotify and so on and Klan, but it's more like a lottery ticket. It's so many they have poured a lot of money going into the US and they fail. So we decided not to do that. Things might change, but for now, Unfortunately.

0:29:28 - Alex Shevelenko

I guess the core point is some of the markets to which you're exposed. They have more retail locations, more stores than the US market, right? So it's not like in that sense, people, sometimes in America there's a kind of centricity to the America and so like it is, while it's easier as a single country, sometimes we tend to forget the EU is a bigger consumer market and has a broader infrastructure. And then you're like you're pretty close to Middle East, Middle Eastern markets and other markets in terms of geography as well.

0:30:06 - Daniel Melkersson

And it's always like the US is always a few years before Europe. That's just how it is. We just need to deal with that technology-wise. So we have also more competition in the US and some of them are really good and we are friends with them and we talk to them and so on, and we see that it's easier for us to grow in other markets and and this is really tacky to say me, but it's better to be a big fish in a smaller pond than a really small fish in a big pond, which we will be in the US. So instead we are one of the top three in Europe.

0:30:36 - Alex Shevelenko

That's much better than trying to get to number one and see what happens with that and so then, back to then, how do you like and I think this is a great kind of maybe wisdom on like, how do you defend yourself as you see us technology companies moving in the space? What do you see? That here's the things that you can do now. Here's the things you could do in the long term to make sure you're not going to be supplanted by some sort of technological leap to AI-based location marketing that has been developed in the last six months.

0:31:14 - Daniel Melkersson

Yeah, Now what we do is, of course, to keep track of where the technology is going and make sure that we're up to date with everything technology wise. The other thing that I think is even more important to make sure that the customer base you have we have almost a thousand customers now. We need to make sure that they're happy that's more important and they get the technology and whatever they need, and not so much looking at where the whole industry is going. I see so many players and this is something that happens in the US as soon as something new and shiny pops up, they use it in the, in their headline of the company. For example, they have changed it to location marketing AI platform.

Yeah, sure, but you have some generative AI that actually helps you write a really poor text. That's. You're not an AI platform. You're just using it to raise more money or whatever you're trying to do with it. We we're trying to stick to what our customer wants. If they want AI, which we see now they want some generative AI helping them write answers to reviews and stuff, we implement it. But we listen to our customers first, because our customer base at the moment is so big, so they represent even-.

They represent what you care about.

0:32:15 - Alex Shevelenko

Yeah. So it's less innovation, problems in search of solutions, if I can summarize, and it's much more or technology in search of problems and solutions. It's more hey, we are going to stick close. We have a large customer base potential. We're going to be intimate with these customers. We're going to speak their language, we're going to understand their local requirements. We're going to support them globally because we're more multicultural in terms of our approach, and then we're going to over, like we, while we stick to technology, we're going to over deliver on the customer success as a differentiator, a great set of insights, anything else that you'd like to share with our audience, and also, where can they find you, Daniel, and what's the best way to connect?

0:33:08 - Daniel Melkersson

You can find me on LinkedIn, Daniel Melkersson. I don't know if you will type any text and so in your pod. Or you can link to my LinkedIn. 

The only thing I would like to share, as we spoke about earlier I don't know if it was in the pod or before, don't be afraid to suck at something new, have fun with it and don't get stuck in old routines. That's why.

0:33:36 - Alex Shevelenko

I'm going to become a rock. You start a rock band, just like you know, in my 40s.

0:33:42 - Daniel Melkersson

We're allowed to start bands in our 40s, but we're only allowed to play in our own basement.

0:33:51 - Alex Shevelenko

Thanks so much for joining and sharing the perspective of building a successful global company from Europe. I think this is a series of podcasts that's super interesting to us because I think, as the venture world for our audience and investment world is normalizing to seeing what's it like to build a company that is sustainable versus just venture backed, some of the fundamentals of what you've shared with us on this call really matter. So thank you so much for joining and sharing that with our audience.