See show notes for this episode: S 02 | Ep 46 How to Build Your "Uncertainty Muscle" When the Stakes Are High.
00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:39,400 [Alex Shevelenko]
I am very excited to welcome Elizabeth Weingarten, a journalist, applied behavioral scientist, and author of How to Fall in Love with Questions. At the same time, I'm a little bit afraid that I'm not gonna ask the right, perfect questions of you, Elizabeth.
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:39,580 [ ]
[laughs]
00:00:39,580 --> 00:01:09,740 [Alex Shevelenko]
So, so you have to help me. Uh, and I think, uh, you know, we're all, I think we all understand that curiosity is, uh, is where it's at in this day and age of everything changing all the time. Uh, but how do we be curious more effectively is, is, is probably gonna be a huge takeaway, uh, for our audience, and what's worth being curious about and what's not worth being curious about as well. So over to you. Tell us, tell us what led you to write the book.
00:01:09,740 --> 00:01:22,410 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, I've, I've definitely heard that before. Let me just take the pressure off that I'm sure you're gonna ask great questions. Um, and we were talking a little bit earlier about, I think the worst thing that you could do is just not ask any questions, right?
00:01:22,410 --> 00:01:22,550 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:01:22,550 --> 00:01:35,940 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And, um, the origin story of the book actually starts when I was in DC. Um, I was single. I was dating men, and found that I kept going on dates with men who did not ask a single question.
00:01:35,940 --> 00:01:36,030 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:01:36,030 --> 00:01:48,200 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, and this happened over and over and over again, and it led me to... At first I was really frustrated, um, as, you know, you, you would, you would be. Um, but it led me to get really curious about question asking.
00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:48,270 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:01:48,270 --> 00:01:52,200 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, the power of question asking, why questions are so important-
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:52,480 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,260 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... um, not only in our personal lives-
00:01:54,260 --> 00:01:54,270 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:01:54,270 --> 00:01:55,810 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... but in our professional lives.
00:01:55,810 --> 00:01:56,060 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:01:56,060 --> 00:02:08,680 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And the, the long s- the kind of long story short of this is that I got really curious about question asking from this kind of perspective of, um, an applied behavioral scientist and, and journalist, but it wasn't until
00:02:09,780 --> 00:02:27,180 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
I started going through some real significant personal, um, challenges that the, the shape of the book really kind of started to come together. Um, I was... This was during the pandemic. Um, I had this interesting questions, but I was asking really big questions in my life at that point.
00:02:27,180 --> 00:02:27,190 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:02:27,190 --> 00:02:31,750 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, one, I had recently gotten married. Um, the marriage was failing.
00:02:31,750 --> 00:02:31,760 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,950 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And I was asking this question of should I get a divorce?
00:02:34,950 --> 00:02:34,980 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:02:34,980 --> 00:02:36,380 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Big, heavy question.
00:02:36,380 --> 00:02:36,940 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:02:36,940 --> 00:02:37,950 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
I had also recently left a job-
00:02:37,950 --> 00:02:41,520 [Alex Shevelenko]
And this is before ChatGPT, so you didn't have your, your-
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:42,060 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Exactly
00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:43,420 [Alex Shevelenko]
... listening assistant in the bl-
00:02:43,420 --> 00:02:43,980 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Exactly.
00:02:43,980 --> 00:02:44,520 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah, yeah.
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:52,750 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Exactly. I was also asking this question of, um, what am I doing with my life, because I had recently left a job to pursue this creative project that was failing.
00:02:52,750 --> 00:02:53,300 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:02:53,300 --> 00:03:02,080 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so I'm holding onto these big, heavy questions, and it was around this time that I found a book called Letters to a Young Poet, and we can talk a little bit about this, but-
00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:02,300 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:03:02,300 --> 00:03:12,109 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... this book was totally transformative, in part because, um, there's a passage in it, um, where a poet, um, Rainer Maria Rilke, um, I don't know, are you familiar with Rilke, um, at all?
00:03:12,109 --> 00:03:12,820 [Alex Shevelenko]
Not yet. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:03:12,820 --> 00:03:20,549 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Okay. So he's this poet writing to an aspiring poet and encouraging him to, quote, "Love the questions themselves as if they were-"
00:03:20,549 --> 00:03:20,549 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:03:20,549 --> 00:03:31,870 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... "locked rooms or books written in a foreign tongue." And Alex, I loved this idea of loving the questions, and yet in my own life, I was like, "I hate these questions. I hate these questions in my life."
00:03:31,870 --> 00:03:31,900 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:03:31,900 --> 00:03:34,370 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
I had never felt further away from loving the questions.
00:03:34,370 --> 00:03:34,380 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:03:34,380 --> 00:03:41,700 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so the book that I wrote is really this exploration of how do we actually love the questions of our life?
00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:41,720 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,700 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Is that even possible, right? Like, especially the big questions.
00:03:44,700 --> 00:03:44,980 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:03:44,980 --> 00:03:51,450 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And how do we do it, especially in a culture in which so many of us have become addicted to fast, easy answers?
00:03:51,450 --> 00:03:51,450 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:03:51,450 --> 00:04:03,260 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so that's really what the book is about and, and kind of... And a big part of it is how do we form a different relationship to uncertainty, right? Um, 'cause the world is, you know, uh, more uncertain every day.
00:04:03,260 --> 00:04:03,460 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:04:03,460 --> 00:04:05,880 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so how do we, how do we basically grapple with that?
00:04:07,180 --> 00:04:24,520 [Alex Shevelenko]
So l- so since you started with, uh, you know, relatively not the most modern of, uh, poets, let's go back to Socrates. R- and, you know, the, every, every law student, pr- probably some journalist students, are being trained in the Socratic method.
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:24,969 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm.
00:04:24,969 --> 00:04:27,460 [Alex Shevelenko]
And it, like it feels almost like you're saying we've lost
00:04:28,580 --> 00:05:34,420 [Alex Shevelenko]
that s- that strain of, of, um, education that, that has been there about asking questions and guiding the question, you know, the, the question guides us to, uh, the real insight. Or, or is there something else going on, right? Like the... 'Cause it's not, it's, it s- sounds ridiculous, right, to ask, to, to realize that if the Western civilization was based under these, these guys, uh, like Socrates or Plato in th- in this particular case that were articulating that this is the discipline. We have, um, uh, you know, I'd, I'd say there's streams in business. Uh, we had a guest, um, who's written a book, uh, and kind of guidelines on curiosity-based selling, right, and teaches a class at Stanford on that. So there's, there's some strains there, um, from, from all the way to Socrates to, you know, the latest business schools where people are focused on the c- the topic of curiosity. And yet, like we have this gap, uh, like with the one that you've experienced. And how do we explain this?
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:57,605 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah, so I think you're right that, that there are, you know, various places in our culture where curiosity is thriving. Um, and I think there is a whole kind of school of thought that, yes, questions are really important in, in business. And also, I think what exists alongside that is a culture that valorizes people that have the answers, right?
00:05:57,605 --> 00:05:57,616 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:05:57,616 --> 00:06:06,636 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
The people that are confident. And, and that still, you know, people inside of organizations feel really uncomfortable saying, "I don't know."
00:06:06,636 --> 00:06:06,646 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:06:06,646 --> 00:06:18,636 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so I think on the one hand, you have people that really romanticize question-asking and curiosity, and then those same people are in meetings, um, with, you know, their subordinates, and they're demanding answers.
00:06:18,636 --> 00:06:18,686 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:06:18,686 --> 00:06:22,965 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so I think there's a real kind of, um, disconnect in terms of-
00:06:22,965 --> 00:06:22,965 [Alex Shevelenko]
Okay
00:06:22,965 --> 00:06:28,916 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... yeah, sure, we can all, we can all say questions are great, right? We're, you and I are sitting here talking about how great questions are.
00:06:28,916 --> 00:06:29,056 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:06:29,056 --> 00:06:48,145 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
But where the rubber hits the road is when we're really worried about something, when we're anxious about something, when there is fear and stakes in the conversation. And that's what I was really interested in, um, in my work, is how do you, how do you open up space for curiosity when the stakes get really high?
00:06:48,145 --> 00:06:49,256 [Alex Shevelenko]
When the stakes are higher, right?
00:06:49,256 --> 00:06:49,266 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah.
00:06:49,266 --> 00:06:52,226 [Alex Shevelenko]
Like, when it's not, it's not like, "Oh yeah," you know-
00:06:52,226 --> 00:06:52,486 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
"Oh, let's just sit and brainstorm with-"
00:06:52,486 --> 00:06:55,236 [Alex Shevelenko]
... you know, "Tell me about your childhood," type of thing, right?
00:06:55,236 --> 00:06:55,506 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Right, right.
00:06:55,506 --> 00:06:55,606 [Alex Shevelenko]
That, that's me.
00:06:55,606 --> 00:07:00,275 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Or just like we're in a, we're in a safe brainstorming session and this is meant for, you know, work.
00:07:00,276 --> 00:07:00,536 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:07:00,536 --> 00:07:16,446 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
It's like I, I, I think that is the, the place where a lot of people don't wanna go there and admit that, um, they're really uncomfortable with curiosity and uncertainty when, you know, we've all had those moments where we just feel so much pressure to just have an answer.
00:07:16,446 --> 00:07:16,516 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:07:16,516 --> 00:07:28,356 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so those are the moments that are most, um, where you're most at risk for seizing a fast, easy answer that's actually not gonna be the right solution and the best decision for you.
00:07:28,416 --> 00:07:31,356 [Alex Shevelenko]
And as a behavioral scientist, what do you find,
00:07:32,456 --> 00:07:43,596 [Alex Shevelenko]
uh, the underneath, whether it's from cognitive and neuroscience or from a social sciences perspective, w- what is driving that need for certainty-
00:07:43,596 --> 00:07:44,126 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:07:44,126 --> 00:07:45,206 [Alex Shevelenko]
... when the stakes are higher?
00:07:46,216 --> 00:07:53,036 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
So I think there's some really interesting science that looks at, um, how our brains evolved and how we're wired.
00:07:53,036 --> 00:07:53,066 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:07:53,066 --> 00:07:55,686 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And there's something called selfish brain theory.
00:07:55,686 --> 00:07:55,716 [Alex Shevelenko]
Okay.
00:07:55,716 --> 00:08:01,036 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And the idea behind that is our brains were really wired for when food was scarce.
00:08:01,036 --> 00:08:01,066 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:08:01,066 --> 00:08:09,716 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And as a result, we are generally trying to choose paths that require less metabolic energy, require less fuel.
00:08:09,716 --> 00:08:10,536 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:08:10,536 --> 00:08:15,226 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Certainty, um, predictability requires less energy. It's-
00:08:15,226 --> 00:08:15,226 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:08:15,226 --> 00:08:22,346 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... you know, just think about yourself on autopilot, right? You're not expending that much energy. Uncertainty, on the other hand, takes more calories.
00:08:22,346 --> 00:08:22,356 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:08:22,356 --> 00:08:25,356 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
It's just harder for our bodies and for our brains-
00:08:25,356 --> 00:08:25,365 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:08:25,365 --> 00:08:58,126 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... to kind of navigate. So, so as a result, we are, we're coding uncertainty in our environments as something that is aversive, something that we want to avoid. Um, and that's like a primary kind of driver behind that feeling of, ugh, uncertainty, I just need to resolve this immediately and I need to get this away. And so you kind of, that's, that's the basis of it. And then, um, psychologists have coined, you know, that experience of like, I need to, I need to just get this, I need to, um, uh, resolve this uncertainty, as the need for closure. Um-
00:08:58,126 --> 00:08:58,176 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:08:58,176 --> 00:09:12,546 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... a psychologist, Arie Kruglanski, and, and others, um, created this need for closure scale to basically assess, um, how much you feel in that moment of, of uncertainty you need to get an answer. Um, the other side of the scale is avoidance, right?
00:09:12,546 --> 00:09:12,556 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:09:12,556 --> 00:09:32,425 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Where you're just like, "I'm not committing at all." Um, ideally you wanna find some kind of balance. Um, but the one other thing I'll say is that your need for closure, your sense of wanting to resolve that uncertainty, is going to differ across situations, right? So maybe you're somebody who at work you actually have a pretty high uncertainty tolerance.
00:09:32,425 --> 00:09:32,436 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:09:32,436 --> 00:09:36,256 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
But at home in your personal life you have zero tolerance for uncertainty.
00:09:36,256 --> 00:09:36,516 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right, right.
00:09:36,516 --> 00:09:48,046 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, and this is something that came up a lot in my, in my interviews and my research, was that, um, yeah, it, it, it, it really, um, it, it's, it's based on lots of different factors and it's highly situational.
00:09:49,386 --> 00:09:55,016 [Alex Shevelenko]
And i- I would imagine also if you look at something like big five personality theory-
00:09:55,016 --> 00:09:55,086 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:09:55,086 --> 00:10:00,546 [Alex Shevelenko]
... there are some people that are a lot more on, you know, on the scale of just being open to things not-
00:10:00,546 --> 00:10:01,516 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Totally
00:10:01,516 --> 00:10:33,616 [Alex Shevelenko]
... formed, right? And then if you apply that to cultures, let's say if you're in LATAM or some cultures where there is just inherently a lot of uncertainty, people are, meaning, like Lebanon is kind of a great example of, uh, uh, people building resilience systems to cope with uncertainty. And so the, is that something that you've un- locked in your work? So people that come from that either cultural predisposition or personal predisposition are more capable?
00:10:33,616 --> 00:10:42,656 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
So, so yes. It, it's, it's, the short answer is, um, personality does have a little bit, um, to do with it. Um, openness to experience, as you pointed out-
00:10:42,656 --> 00:10:42,666 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:10:42,666 --> 00:10:48,156 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... is one of the factors that's most closely related to, um, how comfortable we feel-
00:10:48,156 --> 00:10:48,166 [Alex Shevelenko]
Okay
00:10:48,166 --> 00:10:58,776 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... in uncertainty. Um, culturally, I did uncover some research, um, but, but frankly, it wasn't, it wasn't as robust as I would have wanted it to be.
00:10:58,776 --> 00:10:58,876 [Alex Shevelenko]
Okay.
00:10:58,876 --> 00:11:27,426 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
I didn't include it in my book, um, for that reason, 'cause I just couldn't kind of substantiate some of, there was like, there were findings from one organization that had, um, conducted some, some cultural research. Um, and I think part of it is the, there's a tremendous amount of complexity when it comes to thinking about how a particular country or culture responds to uncertainty that I think is, um, it's very hard to, to just say, "Oh, this culture, um, has this, you know, um, perspective," or c-
00:11:27,426 --> 00:11:27,426 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:11:27,426 --> 00:11:49,886 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... because I think you can also imagine that, um, somebody from a culture that is highly uncertain, you can imagine multiple reactions to that uncertainty, right? You could imagine somebody who, um, you know, to, to your point, maybe they do develop a higher tolerance or a sense of resilience, um, or on the flip side, they might just, you know, be so averse to it that they're seeking-
00:11:49,886 --> 00:11:52,216 [Alex Shevelenko]
They're so traumatized that they wanna like s-
00:11:52,216 --> 00:11:53,486 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
They wanna control everything-
00:11:53,486 --> 00:11:53,506 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:11:53,506 --> 00:12:12,894 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... and they don't, you know? So, so I think it's, it's really hard to, to make those kinds of, um, conclusions. Um- But, but I'm curious for you, I mean, when you think about, you're, you're obviously, you know, a, a, a leader, a founder, what's your own relationship to uncertainty? How would you ki- where would you put yourself on that, like, need for closure scale?
00:12:16,124 --> 00:12:21,324 [Alex Shevelenko]
I think I would agree with your assessment that there is a continuum
00:12:22,484 --> 00:12:33,064 [Alex Shevelenko]
in general, so I'm, I probably as a founder, uh, we would tend to be on the higher, uh, end of, you know, being open to uncertainty.
00:12:35,114 --> 00:12:35,174 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm.
00:12:35,174 --> 00:12:37,904 [Alex Shevelenko]
And there's a self-selection, uh, happening.
00:12:39,424 --> 00:12:50,144 [Alex Shevelenko]
I think also, I, I would say experiences such as immigration, uh, creates a bar,
00:12:51,264 --> 00:12:57,324 [Alex Shevelenko]
um, in my view, of being able to refer to situations in the past-
00:12:57,324 --> 00:12:57,424 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm
00:12:57,424 --> 00:13:05,043 [Alex Shevelenko]
... where you or your family were able to handle uncertainty. And as you know, once it's a muscle, uh, to some degree-
00:13:05,043 --> 00:13:05,054 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:13:05,054 --> 00:13:08,154 [Alex Shevelenko]
... so if you're, if you've kind of stretched the, the,
00:13:09,364 --> 00:13:11,184 [Alex Shevelenko]
[lip smacks] the art of the possible-
00:13:11,184 --> 00:13:11,384 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:13:11,384 --> 00:13:32,194 [Alex Shevelenko]
... uh, I think it, it, it's higher. So if you're in the particular community, uh, or surrounded by people during your formative years who have, uh, taken uncertainty, that's kind of another dimension. Third, I would say, you know, it's funny, I went to two, um, business schools. One was an undergrad. I was at Penn. Wharton was kind of one of the-
00:13:32,194 --> 00:13:32,204 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm
00:13:32,204 --> 00:13:37,424 [Alex Shevelenko]
... majors, so it's, you know, the, a lot of folks there were going straight to Goldman Sachs, kind of, they kind of knew-
00:13:37,424 --> 00:13:37,434 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm
00:13:37,434 --> 00:13:45,204 [Alex Shevelenko]
... there were three. And then the second, the, the... I went to MBA at Stanford, and the Stanford promoted uncertainty a lot more.
00:13:45,204 --> 00:13:45,804 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm.
00:13:45,804 --> 00:13:58,024 [Alex Shevelenko]
Much more entrepreneurial and much more Silicon Valley, whereas I think in, you know, the, the Wharton had that strain of, like, entrepreneurial, but there, at least for undergrads, there was like, "Hey, you know,
00:13:59,144 --> 00:14:09,694 [Alex Shevelenko]
we, you need to manage the downside. There's, these are the top career tracks, and this is, this is sort of where, like, this is the path." There was a, there was kind of more of a notion of a path.
00:14:09,694 --> 00:14:09,804 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah.
00:14:09,804 --> 00:14:27,884 [Alex Shevelenko]
Um, and so it was embrace... Like, there was a lot f- more focus on, um, de-risking your f- your initial, uh, few years after school. So, uh, why am I bringing this up? I think I would say when I started out, I had, you know, maybe went more traditional-
00:14:27,884 --> 00:14:27,924 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm
00:14:27,924 --> 00:15:20,084 [Alex Shevelenko]
... with some proclivity to, to exploring and, you know, backpacking and, and doing other things. And then as, as I kind of progressed over time and pursued more entrepreneurial ventures, I think you just become more tolerant. And so almost to the point where some people, um, just actually take on experiments of, like, how do you take on more uncertainty to train it? So for example, like, after business school, at a small exit, y- um, during and after, I just said, "I'm gonna travel around the world." That was a dream, "And I'm gonna create extra challenges. Like, I'm not gonna know when I... U- until I land in a, in a, in a country or a city, I'm not gonna know where I stay. I'm not gonna have any- anything planned, and I'm just gonna create these uncertain experiences." So for some people it's a gamification.
00:15:20,084 --> 00:15:20,724 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm.
00:15:20,784 --> 00:15:47,284 [Alex Shevelenko]
And so I would put myself on that, in that category. And then at the same time, once you have kids, once you have a lot more complexity, once you have a, you know, company to run, then you, you know, it's a little, it's, it kind of you, you get pulled back into reality and gravity, uh, of responsibility. So I, I don't, uh, I, I find that it's a, you know, an ongoing challenge, right? Like, kind of where do you balance it? Is that w- the pattern that you're seeing as well, Elizabeth?
00:15:47,284 --> 00:16:00,164 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah. Well, I, I think it's, um... I, I appreciate what you shared, and, and I think you, you brought up something w- that I think is really important, which is this idea of uncertainty tolerance as a muscle.
00:16:00,164 --> 00:16:00,273 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:16:00,273 --> 00:16:09,214 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And it's something that has come up, um, again and again, um, and in particular when it comes to, um, the, the role that,
00:16:10,294 --> 00:16:18,614 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
um, our technology is playing in, you know, in some cases, um, like, kind of a- atrophying that muscle, right?
00:16:18,614 --> 00:16:18,644 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:16:18,644 --> 00:16:51,434 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And, and there's a researcher who I spoke to, um, for the book, and I actually spoke to several other researchers for a story that's, um, coming out, um, soon about this topic, um, just about the fact that, you know, it's always been hard for us to tolerate uncertainty, but now kind of in the AI age, um, especially having kind of devices and agents, um, around us at all times that are able to alleviate any uncertainty that we have, answer any question that we have. On the one hand, it's really great in some cases.
00:16:51,434 --> 00:16:51,484 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:16:51,484 --> 00:16:59,184 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
On the other hand, it takes away these everyday moments and opportunities to strengthen our uncertainty muscles.
00:16:59,184 --> 00:16:59,234 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:16:59,234 --> 00:17:55,684 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so it requires that we really become a lot more, um, kind of intentional about building those muscles in our lives, right? And making sure that, you know, yes, um, do I... I, I use AI all the time. It's great. Um, but I also have to be aware of the, the way that it's impacting my own ability to tolerate uncertainty, because if you think about it as a muscle and all of these everyday moments, um, like for instance, you know, um, and not just AI, but just looking up anything and reducing uncertainty ahead, ahead of time. So I don't know if you're somebody that does this, but, like, anytime I go to a restaurant, I look up the menu ahead of time, right? You, like, look at everything on the menu. You decide what you wanna eat, you know, all these things, and it's like that's just one little moment of uncertainty that maybe you could tolerate, right? And that you could go and you could not look or, or maybe, you know, you're in a new city. Instead of Yelping everything-
00:17:55,684 --> 00:17:55,804 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:17:55,804 --> 00:18:01,534 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... that maybe you just walk into a place and you see what happens. So there are all sorts of moments, you know, in our daily lives-
00:18:01,534 --> 00:18:01,534 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:18:01,534 --> 00:18:07,364 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... where we can practice this and build up that tolerance so when the big high-stakes moments arrive-
00:18:07,364 --> 00:18:07,744 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:18:07,744 --> 00:18:10,424 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... we have a stronger foundation to, to work with.
00:18:10,424 --> 00:18:15,664 [Alex Shevelenko]
Well, you, you obviously know the sort of the, the, the range between maximizers and satisficers.
00:18:15,664 --> 00:18:15,804 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm.
00:18:16,608 --> 00:18:25,207 [Alex Shevelenko]
The, I, obviously the, the reduction of uncertainty, you know, feeds our maximizer tendency.
00:18:25,208 --> 00:18:25,598 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:18:25,598 --> 00:18:36,528 [Alex Shevelenko]
'Cause basically it says the, the decision of where I eat on lunch on Tuesday has to be this sort of big, big research project.
00:18:36,528 --> 00:18:36,668 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Sure.
00:18:36,668 --> 00:18:42,368 [Alex Shevelenko]
Where, I mean, you could, you, you could spend as much time on it as, as you would looking for a car, [laughs]
00:18:42,368 --> 00:18:42,568 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah.
00:18:42,568 --> 00:19:01,208 [Alex Shevelenko]
And, uh, and I think now we're enabled with it. Mm. And I think the, the other observation that I just had as you were describing is, you know, the classical example of the kind of super successful story of Uber is that the reason Uber was successful is it removed the uncertainty about the c- the when the car would arrive.
00:19:01,208 --> 00:19:01,588 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm.
00:19:01,588 --> 00:19:01,768 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right?
00:19:01,768 --> 00:19:01,778 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm.
00:19:01,778 --> 00:19:17,568 [Alex Shevelenko]
'Cause it was giving you this sort of sense of control. And so we're, we're ... 'Cause, 'cause you, you may not ... It may not be exactly, uh, 10 minutes, but at least you kind of have an, you know what it is. And with taxis you don't know. You don't know if they'll show up, et cetera, et cetera.
00:19:17,568 --> 00:19:17,828 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yep.
00:19:17,828 --> 00:19:31,228 [Alex Shevelenko]
Um, and so the more, the more, the more Uber, like every- everybody was saying, "We're Uber for this, and we're Uber for that," and we're, you know, the more we live in that world, you're right, the more, the more we get untrained.
00:19:31,228 --> 00:19:31,478 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah.
00:19:31,478 --> 00:19:35,048 [Alex Shevelenko]
And the key takeaway is that the high stakes part, um,
00:19:36,088 --> 00:19:40,108 [Alex Shevelenko]
really shakes you up much more in the personal stuff than at work.
00:19:40,108 --> 00:19:40,208 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah.
00:19:40,208 --> 00:19:45,858 [Alex Shevelenko]
Uh, but there are certainly work decisions and, uh, entrepreneurs tend to identify with their company as a baby.
00:19:45,858 --> 00:19:46,898 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:19:46,898 --> 00:20:16,168 [Alex Shevelenko]
Uh, so the, there, there is that. I think it's easier to untrain that identification than it is maybe to, as a parent, uh, or as a spouse or as a son, like where you have a set of expectations, um, uh, that, that are built in that you may not even be conscious about. And then when the, when they get shaken up, that's where you get all uncomfortable, and you know, we're not trained to ask those questions unless you're doing a lot of meditation, for example.
00:20:16,228 --> 00:20:33,187 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Well, what I often say is that, you know, when it comes to tolerating uncertainty, the personal is the professional, right? And it's like you can't actually change the way that you tolerate professional uncertainty unless you start with that kind of personal sphere.
00:20:33,188 --> 00:20:33,348 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:20:33,348 --> 00:20:51,088 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, and first your relationship to yourself, which sounds a little bit, you know, squishy, but it's actually the, one of the things that I found, um, from my work is that your relationship to uncertainty and these kind of big questions is a direct reflection of your relationship to yourself.
00:20:51,088 --> 00:20:51,228 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:20:51,228 --> 00:20:56,988 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Because your relationship to uncertainty at the end of the day is all about how do I regulate my own emotions.
00:20:56,988 --> 00:20:57,248 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:20:57,248 --> 00:21:00,818 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, how do I kind of deal with myself and talk to myself-
00:21:00,818 --> 00:21:00,818 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:21:00,818 --> 00:21:02,997 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... when the stakes get high, when I'm-
00:21:02,997 --> 00:21:02,997 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:21:02,997 --> 00:21:03,768 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... afraid?
00:21:03,768 --> 00:21:03,967 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:21:03,968 --> 00:21:13,148 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And, and so to do that, you have to, you, you know, ul- ultimately a lot of times it does, does start with those kind of personal ex-
00:21:13,148 --> 00:21:13,258 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:21:13,258 --> 00:21:41,717 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... periences, those personal questions. Because to your point, those are the things that often, um, create the most kind of anxiety, concern, worry, right? The things that are h- can be harder to tolerate. Um, and so, you know, a lot of the, the stories that I tell and the science that I bring in, um, in the book, um, a- are about people that are kind of grappling on, uh, you know, with, with questions that, um, extend from the, the personal to the professional. They're questions about-
00:21:41,717 --> 00:21:41,717 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:21:41,717 --> 00:21:44,138 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... you know, your sense of self-worth outside of your-
00:21:44,138 --> 00:21:44,138 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:21:44,138 --> 00:21:50,148 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... accomplishments. They're, they're questions about, you know, how much do you give yourself over to your kind of professional life-
00:21:50,148 --> 00:21:50,157 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:21:50,157 --> 00:22:39,508 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... um, and the expense of your personal life. Um, and so I think these are things that they can feel detached from the day-to-day, but they're actually so core to how you show up and to how you're making decisions. Um, and so, you know, when you are in that high stakes, high pressure moment, um, if you're a leader, um, it's the difference between being able to, um, uh, you know, you know, like pause in that moment and say, "Okay, I know myself pretty well right now, and I know that I'm feeling really anxious. I'm feeling really concerned about this." And instead of just, um, uh, instead of just kind of compulsively trying to get an answer or make a decision, how do I take a moment and make sure that, A, I'm asking the right question here.
00:22:39,508 --> 00:22:39,628 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:22:39,628 --> 00:23:07,108 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, and, and B, that I'm kind of creating the right, um, conditions and circumstances to allow the right question and the right answer to emerge. Um, and one of the big things that I, that I talk about in the book is kind of a framework for being able to do that, to figure out am I asking the right question, um, and how do I, how do I create, you know, the architecture and the circumstances on my team to help people continue to move forward and find clarity, um, in the unknown?
00:23:08,698 --> 00:23:19,468 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah. L- let's, let's come back to the, to the questions and the framework, but like, this, this f- step first step, right, the foundational step of how do you get to even be curious in the first place?
00:23:19,468 --> 00:23:19,848 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm.
00:23:19,848 --> 00:23:30,268 [Alex Shevelenko]
So I think what you're implying, if I read it, uh, correctly, is that when we're anxious or afraid, we wanna control the environment.
00:23:30,268 --> 00:23:31,288 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm.
00:23:31,288 --> 00:23:31,548 [Alex Shevelenko]
Um,
00:23:32,758 --> 00:23:40,448 [Alex Shevelenko]
w- because we're not okay with whatever happens unless what happens is what we want or we think we want to happen.
00:23:40,448 --> 00:23:41,428 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm.
00:23:41,428 --> 00:23:58,348 [Alex Shevelenko]
So the people that I admire, um, are, you know, in an entrepreneurial or maybe even as, again, in these personal contexts, um, and try to m- model myself on, are the ones that basically say, "Hey, no matter what happens in this situation,
00:24:00,168 --> 00:24:01,548 [Alex Shevelenko]
it's gonna be okay."
00:24:01,548 --> 00:24:02,628 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yep. Yep.
00:24:02,628 --> 00:24:12,898 [Alex Shevelenko]
Uh, and it sounds kind of obvious, but obviously when, when it's high stakes, [laughs] right? Like, so we're not talking about picking a restaurant, but some people get worked up about a restaurant as well.
00:24:12,898 --> 00:24:12,927 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Sure. Sure.
00:24:12,928 --> 00:24:13,688 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right? Like the-
00:24:13,688 --> 00:24:13,748 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:24:13,748 --> 00:24:18,588 [Alex Shevelenko]
... but we're talking about, like, my kids are yelling or fighting with each other.
00:24:18,588 --> 00:24:18,598 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah.
00:24:18,598 --> 00:24:36,738 [Alex Shevelenko]
That one drove me crazy, 'cause I just didn't come out ... I, I came in an, like I grew up in an environment where I couldn't- ... like, as easily articulate my demands as a kid because it was kind of Soviet Union era, y- long time ago parenting. So I, I mean, my mental model,
00:24:37,818 --> 00:24:54,078 [Alex Shevelenko]
you know, this, this sort of aggressive ex- uh, articulation of needs of kids, and the kids fighting with each other over this and, you know, it was v- make me very, very uncomfortable. And so when you're uncomfortable, you lack the curiosity-
00:24:54,078 --> 00:24:54,338 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm
00:24:54,338 --> 00:25:03,438 [Alex Shevelenko]
... and you wanna say, "Hey, you can't yell like this. You, you gotta stop," right? Like, "This is too much," right? Like, there's, this is... You, so you're basically shoving your answer, your idea of what's-
00:25:03,438 --> 00:25:03,448 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:25:03,448 --> 00:25:04,438 [Alex Shevelenko]
... what's right or wrong.
00:25:05,718 --> 00:25:10,898 [Alex Shevelenko]
And this could be in, in the, in, you know, how do you get to revenue in the corporate environment or-
00:25:10,898 --> 00:25:10,928 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:25:10,928 --> 00:25:27,358 [Alex Shevelenko]
... you know, uh, all sorts of applications. But I just thought this was really interesting because if you are okay with whatever the kids are doing or your partner is doing, uh, then you could then say, "Hey, I wonder what's happening for you-"
00:25:27,358 --> 00:25:27,678 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yes, yes
00:25:27,678 --> 00:25:31,578 [Alex Shevelenko]
... "that's causing this. What's underneath this?" 'Cause typically that's just their own reaction.
00:25:32,618 --> 00:25:57,138 [Alex Shevelenko]
But y- there is this gap, as you pointed out, that y- you need to be, to get yourself to that point. Uh, 'cause the initial reaction is to, um, maybe, like, avoid level, avoid some uncomfort, right? Like, that, before we get curious. So what, where do, what's the master move, uh, for people to get to that s- even start asking questions in the first place?
00:25:57,138 --> 00:26:20,618 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah. So it's, it's a, it's a really good question, and I think you've kind of hit it on the head, which is in those moments of, like, tension and fear and stress... And I'm a mother, too, and so I, you know, there are so many times during the day when, um, I find myself just feeling overwhelmed by the chaos, right? And just wanting to, like, I, I just wanna control it.
00:26:20,618 --> 00:26:20,978 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:26:20,978 --> 00:26:26,098 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And, um, and that is completely, completely deflates, um, curiosity-
00:26:26,098 --> 00:26:26,188 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm
00:26:26,188 --> 00:26:38,268 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... because all of a sudden, to your point, you're just, you're just, um, projecting your own answers, your own, you know, um, sense of wanting to, um, wanting to kind of move towards a particular outcome in the situation.
00:26:38,268 --> 00:26:38,878 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:26:38,878 --> 00:26:54,798 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so what you're doing in that moment is you are holding yourself back from learning. Um, and, and so kind of one of the things that, you know, one of the very simple, um, ways to change how you show up in those moments-
00:26:54,798 --> 00:26:55,138 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:26:55,138 --> 00:26:58,758 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... it's, it's very, very simple, right? It can sometimes just be as simple as
00:26:59,878 --> 00:27:05,518 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
taking a brief pause and saying, "Hmm."
00:27:05,518 --> 00:27:05,658 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:27:05,658 --> 00:27:12,248 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And this comes from the work of Judson Brewer, um, who wrote a, a book called Unwinding Anxiety. Um, and it's-
00:27:12,248 --> 00:27:12,248 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:27:12,248 --> 00:27:32,188 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... and it's all about how do you, um, how do you create that space for curiosity in between that, you know, fear or anxiety response? Um, and, and that's the key point is, like, if you think about, you know, yourself and you're, you just become completely enmeshed in your own feelings, right?
00:27:32,188 --> 00:27:32,198 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:27:32,198 --> 00:27:35,678 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Like, how do you just create a little crack in that, um-
00:27:35,678 --> 00:27:35,688 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:27:35,688 --> 00:27:47,218 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... in that and so, so you can just like, "Hmm," and then asking a question, right, in that moment. And maybe for you, the question is, "I wonder what's really going on here?"
00:27:47,218 --> 00:27:47,398 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:27:47,398 --> 00:28:11,138 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Or maybe the question is, "Hmm," like, "I really, I really want this to happen, but is there another... Is, you know, is, is there another outcome that could be okay?" Or, you know, there are lots of different questions that you might ask, but I think the key thing is, you know, A, like, it's s- it's a, it's something that can keep you kind of anchored in the present moment.
00:28:11,138 --> 00:28:11,228 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:28:11,228 --> 00:28:30,088 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And I think the real key and the real reason that curiosity can be so powerful is you're, you're trying to learn more about what's happening right now, what is the moment that I'm in right now, versus I think the fear and the anxiety comes from extrapolating and trying to predict the future, right?
00:28:30,088 --> 00:28:30,118 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:28:30,118 --> 00:28:37,698 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
It's just like, "If my kids don't stop screaming, we're not gonna get to this event on time," or, "People are gonna think this," or, "This is gonna happen."
00:28:37,698 --> 00:28:37,708 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:28:37,708 --> 00:28:47,238 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
You're just kind of, like, going through all these scenarios in your head of what's gonna happen, and which you don't know. You don't know if any of that's gonna happen. And instead of being aware-
00:28:47,238 --> 00:28:50,238 [Alex Shevelenko]
Or, or I would just add, or avoid the past. So you have something-
00:28:50,238 --> 00:28:50,748 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Or avoid the past. Ooh
00:28:50,748 --> 00:28:54,188 [Alex Shevelenko]
... uh, something happen in the past and you're like, "Ah, I don't want that." You know, and the-
00:28:54,188 --> 00:28:54,628 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Totally. The time travel
00:28:54,628 --> 00:28:57,998 [Alex Shevelenko]
... so you're kind of going there or, or, or there.
00:28:57,998 --> 00:28:58,548 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Exactly. Exactly.
00:28:58,548 --> 00:29:03,698 [Alex Shevelenko]
And what you're saying is you're... And those, what I, what I hear you saying is those are
00:29:04,958 --> 00:29:12,268 [Alex Shevelenko]
sort of, they're kind of cerebral memories, but they get you into your crocodile brain, so you're kind of, like, really trying to-
00:29:12,268 --> 00:29:12,268 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Sure
00:29:12,268 --> 00:29:20,777 [Alex Shevelenko]
... to, to avoid a, uh, as, you know, as, as much as possible 'cause you're, again, you're in the fear mode, your reactive mode.
00:29:20,778 --> 00:29:21,308 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Exactly. You're-
00:29:21,308 --> 00:29:24,238 [Alex Shevelenko]
Or attacking mode of that, against that, right?
00:29:24,238 --> 00:29:27,178 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yes. And you're not... I think, like, if y- like, like, think about,
00:29:28,258 --> 00:29:33,758 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
think about any, like, superhero movie that you've ever seen or any, like, action movie, right?
00:29:33,758 --> 00:29:33,837 [Alex Shevelenko]
Sure.
00:29:33,838 --> 00:29:58,158 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
How does the character manage to escape the villain and do all the things? They don't do it by, like, ha- you know, j- worrying or thinking about the pa- They, they are so present in the moment, right? They're, like, looking at the space that they're in. They're like, "Huh. Okay, I see that. I see that. Oh, this is going on here." They are masters of observation and of curiosity-
00:29:58,158 --> 00:29:58,188 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm
00:29:58,188 --> 00:30:18,172 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... of observing their surroundings. And so that's the mindset, I think, for these moments, um, where you're, you're, you're- ... compulsively wanting to like, "Okay, let me just do this. Let me just like, uh, I'm feeling this pain in this moment, I'm just gonna try to solve it the way that I did it in the past," or, "I'm just gonna try to control it."
00:30:18,172 --> 00:30:18,182 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:30:18,182 --> 00:30:51,032 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Versus like, how can I learn about what's happening now, and how do I get curious about this? Which is, which is the harder, higher order thing, but ultimately it's the thing that, you know, maybe in those moments with your kids or with, um, a challenging board meeting or whatever it is, um, taking that moment to pause and try to understand like what's actually happening. I think about this a lot in the context of, um, you know, you're in, you're in a meeting with, um, your board or with, you know, a, a senior leader who's asking you really tough questions.
00:30:51,032 --> 00:30:51,102 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:30:51,102 --> 00:30:53,412 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And maybe you don't know the answers-
00:30:53,412 --> 00:30:53,412 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:30:53,412 --> 00:31:00,691 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... or you're, you're stumbling or something. Taking the, taking the time to understand like, okay, but what's, what's behind this question that they're asking?
00:31:00,691 --> 00:31:01,761 [Alex Shevelenko]
What's behind this question, exactly. Yeah.
00:31:01,762 --> 00:31:03,802 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Right? What are they really trying to get at?
00:31:03,802 --> 00:31:11,902 [Alex Shevelenko]
It actually fails with customers. This isn't, this is a very interesting thing. So there's, we almost like, "Oh, great. I get to answer the question. Check."
00:31:11,902 --> 00:31:12,542 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah.
00:31:12,542 --> 00:31:12,972 [Alex Shevelenko]
You know?
00:31:12,972 --> 00:31:13,002 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Right. Right.
00:31:13,002 --> 00:31:20,072 [Alex Shevelenko]
I'm, I'm, I'm accomplished. And we're all like in the, in the accomplished universe. We all wanna get our little check mark.
00:31:20,072 --> 00:31:20,952 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
The gold star.
00:31:20,952 --> 00:31:20,961 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right?
00:31:20,962 --> 00:31:21,432 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Exactly.
00:31:21,432 --> 00:31:21,432 [Alex Shevelenko]
The gold star.
00:31:21,432 --> 00:31:21,742 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Exactly.
00:31:21,742 --> 00:31:22,042 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:31:23,302 --> 00:31:33,002 [Alex Shevelenko]
And, um, and I see this as pe- especially people who, um, you know, I think the, the intention is to be precise and to-
00:31:33,002 --> 00:31:33,582 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm
00:31:33,582 --> 00:31:39,962 [Alex Shevelenko]
... to really, you know, be thorough. So it, it actually comes from being intel- from intellectual honesty-
00:31:39,962 --> 00:31:40,152 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Sure. Mm-hmm
00:31:40,152 --> 00:31:53,982 [Alex Shevelenko]
... uh, as much as, you know, also like just not, not being aware of, you know, but the, the, the real, the, the, the question underneath the question is, is the fascinating part.
00:31:53,982 --> 00:31:59,442 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
It is, and I think it comes back to some of these core kind of, um,
00:32:00,662 --> 00:32:00,842 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
you know,
00:32:02,282 --> 00:32:06,152 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
like kind of, you know, what, what, what we commonly refer to as like soft skills, right?
00:32:06,152 --> 00:32:06,162 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:32:06,162 --> 00:32:16,591 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
But which I think really under, um, undersells the importance of these skills, particularly in our modern environment. Um, being able to get the subtext, right?
00:32:16,591 --> 00:32:16,621 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:32:16,621 --> 00:32:21,232 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
So it's like, yes, it's the question behind the question, but it's picking up on cues, um-
00:32:21,232 --> 00:32:21,232 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:32:21,232 --> 00:32:32,732 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... from somebody that they're, they're concerned, right? They're... Like maybe you, to your point, maybe you answer their question but you haven't actually picked up on something that they're ac-
00:32:32,732 --> 00:32:32,732 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:32:32,732 --> 00:32:34,142 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... they're really worried about.
00:32:34,142 --> 00:32:34,162 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:32:34,162 --> 00:32:44,282 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, and because you haven't asked, right? And so it's, um, I think it is this, it's this kind of real ninja skill, the people that are able to-
00:32:44,282 --> 00:32:44,382 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:32:44,382 --> 00:32:53,462 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... see and understand like, oh, there's something else going on here emotionally for this person, and I don't quite know what it is and so I'm gonna try to ask them a question to-
00:32:53,462 --> 00:32:53,512 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:32:55,082 --> 00:32:55,382 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... to get that out.
00:32:55,382 --> 00:33:07,202 [Alex Shevelenko]
And, and the, I think the u- the, the, one of the drivers behind that is the, the cultural zeitgeist that I've prepared this presentation or I have, like in my case sometimes I, I fall in love with my own product.
00:33:07,202 --> 00:33:07,531 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Sure.
00:33:07,531 --> 00:33:22,682 [Alex Shevelenko]
And so, uh, even though the product e- encourages human curiosity, i- if, if I don't manage it, I could just talk about the product and how amazing it is for this customer or that customer. Uh, and so I get caught up in that narrative-
00:33:22,682 --> 00:33:23,062 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
00:33:23,062 --> 00:33:30,862 [Alex Shevelenko]
... versus kind of triangulating back and, you know, making sure that, you know, we're addressing what are the questions, uh-
00:33:30,862 --> 00:33:31,002 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:33:31,002 --> 00:33:36,202 [Alex Shevelenko]
... that may be relevant for customers because I'm trying to complete this demo or I'm trying to show everything-
00:33:36,202 --> 00:33:36,212 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:33:36,212 --> 00:33:47,822 [Alex Shevelenko]
... that I have on the plate. Again, the intention is good, but the challenge I think that we live broadly, and, you know, we could come back to how we unlock it, but we live in a culture where
00:33:49,042 --> 00:33:51,942 [Alex Shevelenko]
there's a glorification of sharing.
00:33:51,942 --> 00:33:53,062 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm.
00:33:53,062 --> 00:33:59,122 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right? Like, whether it's on social, you know, most like, "Look at me, me, me," or, "I have this, this, this-"
00:33:59,122 --> 00:33:59,152 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm
00:33:59,152 --> 00:34:02,092 [Alex Shevelenko]
... "or that idea," or like there's just, just it feels like
00:34:03,562 --> 00:34:22,172 [Alex Shevelenko]
there, the, the emphasis on the whole i- is the thought is to be seen as a thought leader. Um, and it's almost like what you're probably proposing is like to be a great thought leader you need to be a, you know, asking great questions first.
00:34:22,172 --> 00:34:22,802 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm. Yep.
00:34:22,802 --> 00:34:23,511 [Alex Shevelenko]
Uh-
00:34:23,511 --> 00:34:23,511 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:34:23,511 --> 00:34:47,582 [Alex Shevelenko]
... and, and then, you know, that, that may lead to, um, to actual breakthrough and it's sort of probably the way, the, the mind, the, like if picking the right questions out of a bunch of questions is, you know, and sequencing them seems to be the right approach. So what's your take on that and framework of, okay, let's say I'm, I took my breath, uh, whether the situation is stressful
00:34:48,682 --> 00:34:54,422 [Alex Shevelenko]
or, or kind of a, just a general opportunity, I could say, "Hey, there's something I could learn here."
00:34:54,422 --> 00:34:55,542 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm.
00:34:55,542 --> 00:35:00,372 [Alex Shevelenko]
Um, you know, if, if my heart is pumping, there's some, there's some curiosity there for me.
00:35:00,372 --> 00:35:00,402 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah.
00:35:00,402 --> 00:35:02,112 [Alex Shevelenko]
Like, what's there to learn?
00:35:02,112 --> 00:35:02,122 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah.
00:35:02,122 --> 00:35:08,662 [Alex Shevelenko]
But then how do I make sure at that point that I ask the right questions?
00:35:08,662 --> 00:35:23,332 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah. So I think in the moment, um, you know, you may not... I think, let me just say this. There's like a... I think if you're in the moment, you're taking a pause, and you're even taking the time to ask a question-
00:35:23,332 --> 00:35:23,332 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:35:23,332 --> 00:35:24,492 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... that is a win, right?
00:35:24,492 --> 00:35:24,512 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:35:24,512 --> 00:36:38,390 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so that is like great. You're, you're trying, you're doing it. If you have a little bit more time, if you're able to kind of even, um, in that moment say, "Okay, um, I'm really curious about this. I wanna take..." You know, again, it depends on the context, but if you, if you have five minutes, then what you can do is explore three different parts, um, of, of the question, um, or three different filters I would say to really understand is this the right question. The first one is probably the most important one, and that is, um, are you asking a, a question that is expansive? And what I mean by that is, um, is your question a binary question? A lot of times we are asking yes/no questions, um, questions that have a yes/no answer, and we're not even aware of it. But what you're doing in that case is you're artificially limiting the possibilities, um, for solutions, for futures, right? And so first really understanding, okay, is this a binary question? If not, how do I reframe this question so it is more open? Um, and I'll take the example, um, that I shared earlier from my own life, which was I was asking this question of should I get a divorce.
00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:38,550 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:36:38,550 --> 00:36:49,720 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Realized not the right question, because yes wasn't the right answer for me. I didn't want to get a divorce. No also wasn't the right answer because it didn't acknowledge the very real problems at the heart of my relationship.
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:49,730 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:36:49,730 --> 00:36:58,799 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so I ended up changing that question to something like, um, [smacks lips] how would I have to change and how would my partner have to change in order for us to stay together?
00:36:58,799 --> 00:36:58,960 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:11,990 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so this opened up a totally different conversation, a totally different kind of set of ideas and possibilities for, for what the future could look like for us. The, the second thing, so we have expansive as number one, the second piece of it is-
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:23,050 [Alex Shevelenko]
So some people use open-ended question. Is that, is that similar, like is, is, is, is that similar as expansive or that's just too nar- like too narrow a-
00:37:23,050 --> 00:37:33,290 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah. I think open-ended is another way of, of describing, um, you know, I think, yeah, it's a similar way of describing expansive. Um-
00:37:33,290 --> 00:37:33,340 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:37:33,340 --> 00:37:46,850 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... but I would say, um, you know, making sure that you can't... It's not a simple yes or no answer. Um, it's something that's going to, um, that, that, that feels like there's a lot of room for, for ideas in there.
00:37:46,850 --> 00:37:54,830 [Alex Shevelenko]
And is open... Like I, I guess to, like not to nitpick the words, but it, it does feel like open, like expansive feels
00:37:56,090 --> 00:38:12,029 [Alex Shevelenko]
more like you're stretching, you're creating more outcomes. Open-ended could still be pretty shallow. You, you know, it's like, it's more like tell me more about this, right, type of question, whereas expansive i- actually like ref- it almost feels like what you've just done is reframes. Um-
00:38:12,030 --> 00:38:13,360 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah, exactly. Exactly
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:21,170 [Alex Shevelenko]
... open-ended doesn't necessarily reframe. Uh, it, uh, it just, uh, the, the ex- the, what you've described
00:38:22,530 --> 00:38:30,320 [Alex Shevelenko]
feels to me as like closer to the question that gets a lot more insight. And, and maybe like the-
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:30,320 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:41,520 [Alex Shevelenko]
... the reframe questions come after the more open-ended. Like tell me more about how you're feeling and then, huh, I, I think the real question is not yes or no, it's like how can we adapt-
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:41,520 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yes
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,090 [Alex Shevelenko]
... ourselves, right? Is that, is that the sequence?
00:38:45,090 --> 00:38:55,670 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
I think that's right. Yeah. I think, I think that sounds, um, sounds right to me. Um, you know, I think the other piece of it that that kind of flows into i- and the second filter that you-
00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:56,450 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm
00:38:56,450 --> 00:39:25,040 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... can use is does this question serve as a kind of internal GPS? And what I mean by that is, is this, is this even your question, or is this a question that someone else, um, is putting pressure on you to answer but that doesn't actually... You know, I think if, if it's, if it's a personal question, you can think about does this lead back to my values? If it's-
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:25,040 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,840 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... a professional question, you think about the values of your organization, right?
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:28,850 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:39:28,850 --> 00:39:39,760 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Like does this actually lead back to something that is core to what we want to do, to who we are, or is this just a question in the zeitgeist that somehow we've felt pressure to try to answer, right?
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:39,770 [Alex Shevelenko]
Got it.
00:39:39,770 --> 00:39:42,590 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so I think there's that, there's that, that-
00:39:42,590 --> 00:40:00,820 [Alex Shevelenko]
It's, it's a, it's a value-based... It sort of says... I, like one of my favorite, favorite phrases to my team is play stupid games, win stupid prizes, and this is, this, what you're, what you're describing, this question is to make sure that you're not playing stupid somebody else's games, right?
00:40:00,820 --> 00:40:00,850 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Exactly.
00:40:00,850 --> 00:40:04,030 [Alex Shevelenko]
That are kind of inherited that you haven't reflected on. Um-
00:40:04,030 --> 00:40:09,660 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Exactly. It's just like does this, is this question like guiding you back to your north star, right?
00:40:09,660 --> 00:40:09,670 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:40:09,670 --> 00:40:10,160 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And if not,
00:40:11,210 --> 00:40:12,870 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
pi- pick a different question. Um-
00:40:12,870 --> 00:40:13,610 [Alex Shevelenko]
Got it
00:40:13,610 --> 00:40:15,600 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... so that's number two. Um, number three-
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:24,360 [Alex Shevelenko]
And so in, in the context of a, you know, potential divorce, like, you know, and let's say you have maybe kids on the way or you wanna have kids-
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:24,360 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:32,010 [Alex Shevelenko]
... or like the... Is, is, is this, like is the question of yes or no the right one for, for the unit?
00:40:32,010 --> 00:40:33,220 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yep. Mm-hmm.
00:40:33,220 --> 00:40:43,560 [Alex Shevelenko]
And, and you know, for, for us, right? And whether you divorce or not divorce, you may still need to navigate, uh, through how do you support kids, as an example, for the-
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:43,560 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Totally
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:56,819 [Alex Shevelenko]
... parents, right? So that's a more like reframing it from like what would make me happy or what would make me afraid of this. It's like what's the right way for all the stakeholders in this situation to,
00:40:57,980 --> 00:41:00,230 [Alex Shevelenko]
to, to get to a better place, right? That-
00:41:00,230 --> 00:41:00,790 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:41:00,790 --> 00:41:02,889 [Alex Shevelenko]
... that's what I'm hearing. Okay, got it. So-
00:41:02,890 --> 00:41:15,390 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think, you know, in some cases I will say too, like in some cases the yes or no, uh... W- what I'm sharing is not, um, meant to be a one size fits all, you know?
00:41:15,390 --> 00:41:15,400 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:23,230 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
It's like, you know, there, there might be some cases in your life where you're like, "You know what? Um, to take the relationship, like I'm in an abusive relationship. Yes, I should get a divorce." You know, like-
00:41:23,230 --> 00:41:23,580 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah, yeah
00:41:23,580 --> 00:41:28,140 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... I'm not intending in any way to say, "Oh, this is gonna be true for you in any..."
00:41:28,140 --> 00:41:28,150 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:41:28,150 --> 00:41:31,250 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
But I think that, I think that you will know, right-
00:41:31,250 --> 00:41:31,260 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:41:31,260 --> 00:41:36,460 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... um, as you're going through this exercise of what question is gonna feel right to you.
00:41:36,460 --> 00:41:36,650 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:41:36,650 --> 00:41:41,970 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, and, and where you might need to expand and where you might need to reframe-
00:41:41,970 --> 00:41:42,020 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:41:42,020 --> 00:41:47,230 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... um, versus something that, um, that, that, you know, you can, you can answer pretty simply. Um, the-
00:41:47,230 --> 00:41:47,690 [Alex Shevelenko]
So expe-
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:51,830 [Alex Shevelenko]
uh, value-based questions, and then the third one?
00:41:51,830 --> 00:42:12,810 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And the third one is, um, is it moving you forward? And what I mean by that is I have a whole framework in the book, um, about kind of w- different types of questions, and I relate different types of questions to parts of a fruit tree, and we can get into that, um, if you'd like. But, um, one part of the tree are, are dead leaves, dead leaf questions.
00:42:12,810 --> 00:42:12,819 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:42:12,819 --> 00:42:18,964 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And these are the questions that- They don't serve you anymore. You should just release them. You should let them go.
00:42:18,964 --> 00:42:19,314 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah. Let it go.
00:42:19,314 --> 00:42:26,824 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And these are the questions that are, like, they're keeping you stuck in the past. So it's, you know, "Why didn't we do this? Why did we break up? What if I had just done this?"
00:42:26,824 --> 00:42:26,854 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:42:26,854 --> 00:42:29,164 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Those patterns of rumination and re-
00:42:29,164 --> 00:42:31,494 [Alex Shevelenko]
Okay, rumination is the key word, right? This is the rumination.
00:42:31,494 --> 00:42:32,824 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Exactly. Exactly.
00:42:32,824 --> 00:42:32,834 [Alex Shevelenko]
Y-
00:42:32,834 --> 00:42:48,894 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And so if you're asking a question like that, that's a pretty good signal that, you know, this is not the right question for you, because it's not helping you move forward. It's not helping you see different possibilities, different answers, um, different solutions. Um, so that's another case where-
00:42:48,894 --> 00:42:49,014 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right
00:42:49,014 --> 00:42:50,414 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... time to question.
00:42:50,414 --> 00:42:56,234 [Alex Shevelenko]
Rem- s- it's s- it's October and November. Dead, dead leaves, let's out. So that's easy.
00:42:56,234 --> 00:42:56,254 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yes.
00:42:56,254 --> 00:43:03,574 [Alex Shevelenko]
Let's go through the other questions, right? Like, 'cause I think that's really helpful. A lot of people get stuck in that, "Why didn't I raise money at that time? Why didn't-
00:43:03,574 --> 00:43:03,814 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:43:03,814 --> 00:43:11,324 [Alex Shevelenko]
... why didn't we do this, that?" The like, whether it's in business or personal, um, I think that's a very common trap, especially-
00:43:11,324 --> 00:43:11,654 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
It is
00:43:11,654 --> 00:43:21,074 [Alex Shevelenko]
... high standards, and we somehow, as life progresses, we don't meet these standards. Um, I think that's easy to get caught in.
00:43:21,074 --> 00:43:26,454 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Totally. Totally. And it's just not help- you know, it's not... You know, you think about how is this question actually serving me?
00:43:26,454 --> 00:43:27,154 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:27,154 --> 00:43:35,714 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
It's probably not. And so you might be able to ask a better que- you know, a question for you might be, "Well, what, what did I learn from that that I can carry forward?"
00:43:35,714 --> 00:43:35,744 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:43:35,744 --> 00:43:40,384 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
You know? And so then you're, then you're not kind of staying stuck, and you're just-
00:43:40,384 --> 00:43:40,384 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:43:40,384 --> 00:43:42,284 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... thinking about applying it to, to-
00:43:42,284 --> 00:43:42,454 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:43:42,454 --> 00:43:44,374 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... future circumstances.
00:43:44,374 --> 00:43:47,774 [Alex Shevelenko]
So l- so let's go, let's go through your, the, through the TREE framework.
00:43:47,774 --> 00:43:48,274 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Sure.
00:43:48,274 --> 00:43:48,534 [Alex Shevelenko]
Uh, yeah.
00:43:48,534 --> 00:44:52,194 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a big part of the book is, okay, if you wanna change your relationship to uncertainty, you've gotta change your relationship to the questions in your life. And how do you change your relationship to questions? Well, you get to know them better. You are able to kind of, um, uh, calibrate your expectations for those questions. And what I mean by that is, um, you know, a question like, "What am I gonna have for dinner tonight?" is very different from a question like, "Who am I?" Right? Um, and so we need to be able to understand what type of question are we asking, and what type of expectation do we have for when we can get an answer, or what type of question this is. So the framework is, um, there are kind of four different parts of it. Um, the first, um, part or the first type of question in the framework, um, is a peach question. And what I mean by that is, you know, think about a peach ripens pretty quickly on the tree. These are the types of questions that you're gonna get an answer to pretty quickly. So maybe it's a question like, "Will I get, um, the job?" Right?
00:44:52,194 --> 00:44:53,303 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:44:53,303 --> 00:45:42,564 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, y- you're gonna know, um, in a few weeks if you get the job. Or maybe if you, you know, you're making, um, uh, y- you're, you're trying to figure out if you're gonna get, like, the next, um, seed round, right? Okay. You're gonna, you're gonna find out, and you're gonna find out fairly soon. So it's a peach style question. The second type of question is a pawpaw question. Now, pawpaw fruit, um, takes five to seven years to ripen on a tree. So these are the questions that are gonna take you a little bit more time, um, to answer. So maybe it's a question about, um, whether a, a new venture is gonna succeed, whether a new career pivot is going to help you find that kind of sense of meaning and purpose, um, that you're, that you're craving in your life. Um, the third type of question is the heartwood question. Now, heartwood is the part of the tree, it's actually kind of the center or the core-
00:45:42,564 --> 00:45:42,574 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:45:42,574 --> 00:46:01,074 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... of the tree. It stays with the tree for its entire life, lending the tree its stability, um, helping it kind of come back to that sense of equilibrium. Um, and that's the same for, for your heartwood questions. So these are the questions that they're never really permanently answerable, but rather they evolve. They change-
00:46:01,074 --> 00:46:01,083 [Alex Shevelenko]
Sure
00:46:01,083 --> 00:46:10,284 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... with you across your life. So these are the questions like, "How do I live a life of meaning and purpose?" Right? Um, "How do I balance, um, high performance with wellbeing?"
00:46:10,284 --> 00:46:10,354 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:46:10,354 --> 00:46:19,114 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, i- who, who am I, right? Um, all of these might be some of your heartwood questions. Um, the fourth w- type of question we already talked about. Those, those-
00:46:19,114 --> 00:46:19,234 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:46:19,234 --> 00:46:20,363 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... are the dead leaf questions.
00:46:20,363 --> 00:46:20,424 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah, okay.
00:46:20,424 --> 00:46:22,354 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Um, so those are the questions that you can-
00:46:22,354 --> 00:46:22,514 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:46:22,514 --> 00:46:26,354 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... you can release keeping you stuck in the past. So those, that's the, that's the basics of the-
00:46:26,354 --> 00:46:30,493 [Alex Shevelenko]
So what, what's the biggest... Like, let's say deadwood is obvious, all right? Like we could-
00:46:30,494 --> 00:46:30,574 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
It is, yeah
00:46:30,574 --> 00:46:33,754 [Alex Shevelenko]
... we could probably save, like, 50% of our time, you know?
00:46:33,754 --> 00:46:34,033 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:46:34,034 --> 00:46:43,814 [Alex Shevelenko]
Uh, in our, in a Western society if we're, we're worrying about that. Ho- what is the mis- biggest opportunity for people that they miss today so that our-
00:46:43,814 --> 00:46:43,824 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Mm
00:46:43,824 --> 00:46:57,654 [Alex Shevelenko]
... audience could say, hey, if I... Besides getting the book and getting into it, like what's the one takeaway that, um, you would recommend for people to be, be more reflective between these three types of, uh, remaining questions?
00:46:57,654 --> 00:47:14,134 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah, so I think when it comes to the pawpaw questions and the heartwood questions, those are the ones where, you know, we might feel a lot of pressure and urgency to get those answered, but I think recognizing that, A, they might never be answerable, or-
00:47:14,134 --> 00:47:14,144 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:47:14,144 --> 00:47:15,734 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... B, it might take some time to answer.
00:47:16,874 --> 00:47:32,714 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
That's a really powerful realization for, um, your own process in terms of being able to, uh, get a little bit more patient, right? And I have a whole chapter in the book about how do we cultivate patience, this, like virtue that feels very old school, right?
00:47:32,714 --> 00:47:32,814 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:47:32,814 --> 00:47:41,614 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
But is really important. And so I think when you recognize that, okay, it might take me some time to answer this, or this might never be answerable-
00:47:41,614 --> 00:47:41,744 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:47:41,744 --> 00:47:56,544 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... how does that change the way that you approach the situation, the way you, um, try to seek answers? Um, that is, that can be a transformative process, because you are,
00:47:57,594 --> 00:48:07,754 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
instead of in these moments where you might feel like you really need an answer right now, instead of just like clinging to the first answer that comes up, you can give yourself a little bit more time.
00:48:07,754 --> 00:48:07,764 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:48:07,764 --> 00:48:15,854 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
And in that time and space, um, find a, a path or an answer or solution that's ultimately gonna be a lot better for you-
00:48:15,854 --> 00:48:15,934 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:48:15,934 --> 00:48:42,914 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
... um, than the thing that just came up immediately. So I think that's what kind of changing those expectations on the front end helps you- Sit with those questions for a little bit longer, and I have a whole framework and, and kind of q- uh, process, uh, called the questions map and questions practice, um, to help people do that. Um, but, um, that's what it can, can give you, um, on the, on the back end. Um, that greater clarity and hopefully better answers and more kind of expansive, um, set of possibilities.
00:48:42,914 --> 00:48:49,633 [Alex Shevelenko]
Well, amazing. So I think you could've, you could actually discover the meaning of life and take, be patient enough to get to it.
00:48:49,633 --> 00:48:50,434 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
[laughs]
00:48:50,434 --> 00:48:53,564 [Alex Shevelenko]
Not be attached if you don't get to it right away.
00:48:53,564 --> 00:48:53,674 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Right.
00:48:53,674 --> 00:48:58,134 [Alex Shevelenko]
Uh, if you buy the book. Elizabeth, how can people find you and the book so that-
00:48:58,134 --> 00:48:58,574 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah
00:48:58,574 --> 00:49:00,834 [Alex Shevelenko]
... we, uh, we explore this more?
00:49:00,834 --> 00:49:20,934 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Well, I appreciate it. You can, you can find the book wherever books are sold. Um, Amazon, uh, Bookshop, um, Barnes & Noble to name a few, few places that carry it. Um, you can go to my website elizabethweingarten.com. Um, and I'm also on Substack. Um, so at Time Travel for Beginners is my Substack. So, um, find me in any of those places.
00:49:20,934 --> 00:49:31,174 [Alex Shevelenko]
Amazing. As we wrap up, Elizabeth, one final piece of wisdom for, for those that wanna bring more curiosity and questions into their lives.
00:49:31,174 --> 00:49:59,254 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yeah. Think about your questions. Um, think about forming a different relationship to your questions. Like, what would it look like for you to start to treat a question in your life like you would treat a person? Um, so that's the reflection that I would leave people with, and I think that is core to this poet Rilke, um, and what he, what he wants us to leave with. Um, but that's the, that's the big, that's the big reframe, I think, around curiosity and questions.
00:49:59,254 --> 00:50:04,774 [Alex Shevelenko]
That's the mic drop. So anthro- anthropomor- anthropomorphize your questions. [laughs]
00:50:04,774 --> 00:50:05,654 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Yes. [laughs] Totally. Totally.
00:50:05,654 --> 00:50:10,244 [Alex Shevelenko]
Give them a name. What would Elizabeth, my friend Elizabeth [laughs] ask about this question?
00:50:10,244 --> 00:50:10,254 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
[laughs]
00:50:10,254 --> 00:50:25,614 [Alex Shevelenko]
I mean, Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, it was a lot of fun, and I have a lot more questions to ask, but w- we can't continue forever. [laughs] But please welcome back to the podcast, and, uh, we'll, we'll bring more questions from our audience next time.
00:50:25,614 --> 00:50:28,534 [Elizabeth Weingarten]
Awesome. Thanks so much for having me, Alex. It was a lot of fun.
00:50:28,534 --> 00:50:28,854 [Alex Shevelenko]
Thank you.
00:50:31,674 --> 00:50:33,054 [Alex Shevelenko]
Uh, okay.