0:00:02 - Alex
All right, so great. And how's my audio here? All right? Oh, two seconds. All right, glenn. All right, so I'm just going to when I click, clap the next time we can get started. All right, super Welcome to the experienced focus leaders podcast. I'm delighted to welcome Glenn Paulos, co-founder and general manager of NWS. I formerly got wireless, a leading distributor in mobile broadband wireless and test measurement equipment market. Glenn is the author of never sit in a lobby, which is a handbook for sales, and it combines years of experience in doing sales, complex sales in his life and career into that book and would love to learn more about you know the sales experience, founder experience and how do you mix it all, glenn. So welcome to the podcast.
0:01:13 - Glenn
Hi Alex, Thank you so much for having me today. It's great to be here.
0:01:16 - Alex
Great. Well, let's start with the book. Glenn, in your book, never sit in the lobby. You offer top sales tactics and strategies from wealth of experience that you had, you know. Can you share us? What are the top three nuggets that you would want somebody to take away from the book and possibly drill in further?
0:01:40 - Glenn
Sure.
So when anyone asked me what the book is about, I usually say it the book is sort of a handbook on how to get, act and stay in front of your clients and how to be a pleasure to do business with always, and so and you know the sub, the subtext of the book never sit in the lobby.
You know 57 tips for building a career in a business, in sell, in sales, right, and and so the book is packed with with lots of useful tips. There's, you know, like I said, 57 of them, right, so, but they're divided up, you know, rather than, rather than pick three out of the 57 or that are that are the top ones, because it depends on the subject, right, and so it sort of breaks it down into like sort of you know, like you know what, what were the ways that I used to get in front of the customers and and how, once I was there, how do I stay in front of it and how do I act when I'm there, right, and so there's a lot in the book on, you know, you know tips and techniques about getting getting into the customer's location, getting them on the phone, things like that, you know, and then how to get how to act in front of them. So that's really broken down into things like building rapport right, which I spent a fair bit of time on, and you know, really it's both rapport and not being, not being a displeasure to do. You know, don't do this right, don't do that right, and also do this and do that, and so it's a combination of things to do and thumb the nation of things not to do right and don't be annoying, etc.
0:03:16 - Alex
And so I think that's a great and some stories. I should have read that book before Before attempting sale. Yeah, so I should. That's a really great kind of framing, kind of what. What are the two dues and not to do is. And one of the two dues that you bring up in there is use, use humor, right, and yes, I think there's a lot of anxiety probably for people about using humor as it's going to be.
appropriate humor is, you know, I think there's probably questions and authentic, you know, is humor to some people right was kind of flat jokes versus like more conversational humor where you're just talking to a friend or somebody you want to help you know. So guidance a little bit on what are where do you find you know, humor works best? And then any applications that you've seen that that either kind of either in the ice breaking mode or just solidifying the relationship mode works best.
0:04:18 - Glenn
So the one one at some point a long time ago I don't remember when and I don't remember who, but I learned this definition of humor being the juxtaposition of the incongruent right, which is really a mouthful, but really what it means is sort of like lining up two things that are incongruent in a way that it can't help but be funny, right, and I mean I'm like I'm scrambling, you know, think of something right off the top of my head right now and but it's kind of escaping me. But but oftentimes, like the, you know, just pointing out something that's sort of like just humorously, sort of incompatible or whatever about something that's, I have an example for you. Go ahead and tell me if it's a fit one.
0:05:01 - Alex
So so you know my other head other than the podcast everyone relate to and relate to turns your business communication, typically written or visual, into a more engaging and proactive experiences, and so people typically would start like a sales proposal or sales site was kind of. Or book, you know, was this sort of like I'm really excited to share. You know all this stuff. You know it's super interesting but it's like some kind of something like that sounds, you know, very, very exciting but in reality when you kind of imagine yourself like reading a 80 page book was out like easy to follow and I'm really excited to bore you for the next 54 pages of really long text, yeah, it's hard to navigate and escape from right and sort of like that.
Is that, is that like a yes, it is yeah.
0:06:00 - Glenn
And so one one example that I use in the book, which is the well, the rule is always ask for a mini, a mini tour, right. And people are like what's a mini tour? And a tour as well, it's a tour, that's mini, right, and basically meaning it doesn't take all fricking afternoon. And it's like, you know, because we're selling to businesses. We're selling stuff, right, things.
I mean, I've always been in kind of in the hardware business selling hard products, not software, really, you know. But nonetheless you have to visit customers and usually they're buying things because they're expanding something. You know, they're building a new building, a new lab and new office, and new this and new that right. And so I often would find, I found, you know, early on that getting beyond the law, being getting to the place where the products are going to be used is, is critical to seeing how you fit in the packing order right, and so the mini tours basically saying, hey, I know you're building a new lab. You know, can I get a quick mini tour of the lab, and you know, and then the guy kind of hums and haws in a little bit and it's like, look, don't worry, won't take long. I promise I won't sell any encyclopedia as well. I'm in the building right and that is kind of the encyclopedia is.
Lying is like right, you know and the guy got him because it's basically he. That is what he's afraid. Right, he's a word that I'm going to be selling life insurance and encyclopedia, and so I'm going to be selling life insurance and encyclopedia is throughout the building and embarrassing, or whatever it's like. No, I just want to click, look and in the lab and you know in and out and what have you right. And there's other rules that I combine with those rules that really reinforce him having made the right decision.
It's not about the humor now, but I mean that joke usually snaps them into saying, okay, fine, let's go and have a quick look at the lab or the warehouse, or the office, or the expansion, or the new level, the new floor, the new this, the new that, whatever. And while I'm you know, on my way there, I'm practicing other rules, right, like never forget a face, right, because before I showed up to meet him, of course, I never sit in the lobby that's the name of the book, right? So so I don't have to stand for 10 minutes waiting if I'm a little bit early, I'm in my car. And while I'm in my car I practice my never forget a face routine, which is where I go through my phone and I look at everyone in the building I've ever met and I remember their face right, I bring it from long term memory, which is deep down, 61 years of memory, right, and I bring it to the forefront.
right like I remember Sally and I remember her face and I bring it to the forefront, so it's not only on the tip of my tongue but it's really, you know, ready to be said hey, sally, right. That's the difference, because that nanosecond or when you're old like me, you know several microseconds of delay getting it from the back to the front, it's already tells Sally that you're. You forgot her name. Right, and so that is a. That is a perfect example of not being a pleasure to do business with. Right. You forgot, my god damn name.
0:09:01 - Alex
It's really interesting, right, so like so. So we've let's, let's sort of translate this. And you know, we one of the one group of our audiences are marketers, for example, right, and people and they kind of create, who create the maybe either digital content or support sales teams. And you know, there's really this fascinating pattern because most of marketing is typically one too many, and then there are some certain starts right going to account based marketing, which is one to few, but it's never typically as personalized as sales experiences and sales conversations.
And so if we were to kind of do this exercise of trying to, you know, take the insight that you have from kind of how do you have human to human interactions and bring it to the world that's highly digital, it sounds like when I, let's say, land in a proposal document, I need to feel like there's something that's there for me. There could be my name or my group's name at a minimum, where I can go and jump directly. So I know, hey, I'm in the it, you know, security division, and there's a chapter for me and I don't, I could listen to linear narrative and you know, etc. But I could go directly to the parts.
0:10:19 - Glenn
That I care about is that it might kind of interpreting this yeah, yeah, yeah, and also like for in the marketing side of things it would be. You know, we've all found ourselves getting it feels like we're getting moved out of funnels and put back in the top, where they've already met us. But they're there. Maybe they're rerunning us into a funnel and like a sale, a click funnel routine like on this is on the marketing side now right where it's like wait a minute, like you're talking to me this email, although I can sort of sense that it's a click funnel routine, you've put me in the wrong place. You already know me, I've already replied, I've already maybe joined the mail list, what, whatever? But why isn't your, why isn't your marketing engine smart enough to know whether I'm brand new, contact, I've subscribed or unsubscribed? You know those are. Things are like easy to be managed these days with HubSpot and things like that.
0:11:12 - Alex
Yeah, right, if you just put the tracking code on your HubSpot and Marketo and you download an ebook, if you know what you're doing with HubSpot and Marketo, you actually would not even have you fill out the form as an example, exactly Because you already know that this is somebody that we know, they already have signed up. Why do I need the poor customer to fill out the same form?
0:11:39 - Glenn
Right, I've already downloaded the book and instead of saying, oh, I hope you enjoyed the book because it's reusing my name later or whatever, it's like you forgot that I downloaded the book instead of asking me how I like the book, all those kinds of things. And I mean, when they're going back to the sales now, when you're in the lobby and get the mini tour, the guy says, yes, now you're walking in towards the new expansion, the new floor, the new building, the new lab, whatever. And you've mumped into like six people and it's like, oh, sally, bob, john, how's it going? Oh, I haven't seen you in a while. Jack, what's?
And this guy's like, holy shit, this guy knows everybody, right. And everybody also says, wow, I can't believe he always remembers my name. I really like that Glenn guy. Whenever he comes, he always remembers my name and you know he's such a pleasure to do business with, right. And I mean the worst thing is when these people remember your name and you, you remember their name eventually, but they've already walked past you because you're on, you're, you know, you're on a, on the move of getting to this new lab with this other guy, and I mean the guy's already 30 paces behind and you're like, oh right, jack, you know, I mean it's pretty pretty bad luck, right, and so, and also it throws off your mojo, right, in the sense that, oh, I forgot his name. I feel so stupid. And you know, and, and I even in, even in the non-selling environments, like if I go somewhere with my wife, I'm always telling her every time you say hello to someone, make sure you use their name, always use their name. Don't ever assume I know their name, always repeat their name.
0:13:04 - Alex
You know and you know you're gonna help me out, because I mean, I mean forget it Right, yeah, and it's like oh, jack, you remember my husband Glenn, right?
0:13:11 - Glenn
You know like that kind of a thing, right? Like, don't don't handicap me with expecting me to remember who that person was, right? And, and I do the same for them, right, I'm using the person's name. They like hearing their own name and I'm helping the people that I'm with to, in case they didn't read my book and practice the never forget a face rule before entering the location, right? And yeah, well, that's fascinating.
0:13:37 - Alex
Well, you're removing a sort of kind of uncomfortable friction around human encounters, right, and I think we can. I think this is really fundamental and I kind of want to come back to this because I think there's a lot of you know me come, not coming directly from a sales universe originally. When I came in and into an enterprise software organization in my case and I met, you know, sales leaders and sales team members, I was just blown away. There are some of the nicest, most you know, fun, interesting people, right humans to be around.
And then you know, but there's a sort of stereotype of like, oh there's sales people there, right, you know that there's a sort of slack fast talk in some part of the society right and fundamentally, I think, certainly at a professional, like at a professional level, where it's sort of you're not, you're not really selling something people don't want, just trying to identify if you could help people solve a problem and if you can help. If you can't, you'll point them in another direction. Is that kind of that mindset of that? These are just two humans talking. Is that sounds like that's where what you're really actually after, right, like yeah, I'm trying to eliminate all sources of see, because I go on about attraction is not a choice.
0:15:00 - Glenn
And I feel the same way about, like rapport. Right, you're either building rapport or losing rapport. Right, it's like a, it's like a scale, right, a continuum of where you are on the, on the rapport, and there's things you're going to do that are going to increase rapport. There are things that you may do that will decrease rapport, and so I'm always trying to measure my behavior in a way that is not. That is, either like where there's equal, like it's not even increased, or decreasing it, so it's ambivalent or it's increasing rapport, right, and you know, like, for instance, I'm not going to talk about highly charged political things to customers. You know that, first of all, I don't even know what their affiliations are, their beliefs. There's so many, there's so many topics today, right, I won't ever engage in any of those things, and you know those are really good examples, but it's a lot of times it's things about body language and listening techniques, and that are really where the subtleties of rapport are buried in, right, and you know let's talk about body language, right?
0:16:11 - Alex
So obviously there is like things like mirroring, where you're kind of you know you're, you're connecting on that level, but one of the things that we find really fascinating and maybe it could provide a perspective. So we develop something we call digital body language and that is, let's say, I send you a proposal and I could see what you're you know not. Hey, great, thank you, you know. Thank you, alex, you know I'll. You know I'm really great. And then I never look at it right.
0:16:42 - Glenn
So at first I know like you've never looked at the proposal. But if you look at it okay, I can see where did you look, you know where did you really engage?
0:16:49 - Alex
Did you actually deep dive into case study A or B? And then when I come into a meeting, I'm actually like really, you know, prepared to add value to, because I mean kind of have an anticipation like you may want to drill into particular areas, or kind of you skip something that's really important potentially, and that sort of is actually, you know, not meant to track you, but it's actually meant to have a higher quality conversation with whiz whiz. Whoever kind of has consumed your content in the conversation. That's face to face right. Like, let's say, you're pitching a presentation, right, typically it's a monologue, right, and you just have to get through the slides and they're in a linear way.
But imagine again, a digital body language says well, you pick the journey right. Here's five, here's five solutions. You know that we prepared for you based on our early discussion. Which one do you want to drill into right now? Then this is sort of a conversation. This is a conversation that between you know friends, almost, or any sort of normal conversation, versus a monologue, like experience. So I'm curious to see is this aligned with what you're seeing, that the kind of some of the best sales folks doing and kind of, when they're, when they're not using any presentation tools or digital tools, where they're really kind of let the customer sometimes drive the discussion and or, like you know, maybe a difference right, what's your take?
0:18:23 - Glenn
Yeah, well, I have, I have. Yeah. So when you say digital, do you mean like you're doing it virtually or you're just doing a digital presentation on, like, just? I just want to understand the boundary of the question. So, are you talking about being in the boardroom and showing a digital presentation, or you're doing something where it's a digital interaction over electronic medium, like you're at your office, there at their office, or?
0:18:47 - Alex
Yeah, it could be all of the above. So I think I think you're blurring effectively. So you could be. You could be presenting and you could choose words direction. The vendor drives the presentation, then they feel it's a co-created experience.
0:19:01 - Glenn
Yeah, and this.
0:19:02 - Alex
thing could be done on Zoom right Like effectively.
0:19:04 - Glenn
OK, so I think your thing is really cool. I mean, I have a whole thing on presentations which is a little bit different, and so I mean let's hear it.
0:19:14 - Alex
Let's hear it.
0:19:16 - Glenn
OK, so the way I approach a presentation is I call it it's on my website and you can download the map of it or the diet. You know, like it's a booklet that shows you how to build one presentation like this and it's called the Punch Perfect, pitch and Close. Right, and this is the way I have reduced because I've been, you know, since 1985, I've been showing up places and showing people products, then hoping they're going to buy them, right, and so I had to develop a, you know, kind of a way of doing it that wasn't boring and you know, it doesn't put people to sleep and so, and I do actually go on about it in the book. So obviously, hopefully everyone reads the book, of course, but that's a shameless plug, but but nonetheless, the Punch Perfect, pitch and Close is basically the idea that most people sort of sorry, most people when they start their presentation, they kind of like throw up the PowerPoint and they start with, like the factory in, you know, in North Carolina or Los Angeles, and this is our factory.
0:20:19 - Alex
About us.
0:20:20 - Glenn
this is about me 300 people and we were founded in 1973 by the Forsters' Bothers and, you know, sold the company to Private Equity in 1981 and everyone's already asleep. Right, you're done. And that's not how I do it. I try to like I start with the punch, right, and the punch is something that will alter their state, right.
So it's either a noise, a loud noise, banging the table, you know the, you know, so you could, you know, bang the table and say you know, I heard your finances are a problem. I heard your logistics are a problem. I heard your production is a problem. I heard you know, I heard you're struggling for throughput. I heard you know, whatever your business, you're in right, or you presuppose having, because having qualified them what you're there to present really, what the solution is. And so maybe you have a video which shows a customer, a generic customer, enjoying the benefits of the same problem that they have, right, like, maybe they don't, their throughput is a problem, they can't pack goods fast enough, they can't make them fast enough, they can't ship them fast enough, whatever right, and you show your, whatever it is you do, your system, your software, your product, your machine, your, you know, your instrument, whatever it is showing, solving that problem already with a dynamic, you know, sort of either what do you call it, like a narration, or with music, and just grab their state right?
0:21:50 - Alex
Do you want to grab senses? So what you're creating? Is you're creating a multi-sensory experience that interrupts them out of there, like Out of their lathergy and all of here another boring presentation.
0:22:02 - Glenn
How long is this going to be? I got to go while. I'm bitching at me, and you know, whatever right I mean, you want to. You want to change their state by hitting the with the punch right and then so. So, glenn, you don't know it, but you're a brother from from another mother.
0:22:15 - Alex
For me, you know, it's like the older brother, I think, but, but, but I think this is fundamentally what you know, why you want to go away from like a static experience, right, because static is a. It's kind of what you expect and you've seen this for the last 20 years and it hasn't changed that much. And so, kind of like, where can the video move this? Like, like, can it move? Like, can the sound move it in your case, right, yeah, can a combination of a can a story of a customer that's exactly like me, you know, interrupt that this is not relevant and like make it a hyper relevant?
0:22:49 - Glenn
So then I want to understand Is that like a is.
0:22:52 - Alex
So that's okay, great. So you actually have developed a and you're doing what? What are you? Are you doing this with your hands?
0:23:00 - Glenn
You have, physically, you took yourself hardware, so so the yeah, so so oftentimes the you know it's, it's anywhere from me making a like, making a noise and a bold claim, or to, I love the one where I can, where I can purpose a short video clip with a proper audio overlay on it. Right, very short, not, you know, not a company video, right.
0:23:25 - Alex
No, this is a customer saying yeah, you know, it's like maybe 30 seconds, and you know the and just to.
0:23:35 - Glenn
Basically my whole intention, though, is really just to change their state, to get them into the present moment of being with me, to learn about what I'm talking about and not worrying about the last meeting, where they were getting yelled at about being over budget or below target or missing their production goals or what you know, whatever. Right, I mean, because people come into these meetings with, you know, with emotions that have been building up for whatever amount of the day has gone by, and whether they do or don't want to be there, and you know all that sort of stuff. Right, so punch is to change their state. Then it's the perfect pitch. Right, so, the perfect pitch, and again, I, I.
There's a whole guidebook that shows how I build it, with the some points and bullets and things, but basically it uses my rule called the power of three. Right, where I presented everything in the power of three. If I can't, if I can't, break it into three, if I only have two, then I, then I have to elaborate my idea to get to three, and if I have four, it's too many and I have to break it down into smaller chunks, or I have to break the groups up so I can present each one of them in the in the proper light, right Like I don't want to cover too much ground, Because basically, humans can hold anywhere between three to seven ideas.
Once you had five, it's problematic, right, but the whole idea of magic yeah, Three is the magic Goldilocks principle, right, right, just like the golden ratios and other things. They just, they, just, they just work, right. I mean, they're just sort of mathematical and just sort of human nature, things that people kind of. And so they like, you know, you know small, medium, large, you know what I mean? Yeah, and it's like it's the Goldilocks thing, right, too cold, too hot, just right, you know that kind of a thing, right, and. And so then I break it up into three topics.
I also, in presenting it, I use the power of three, so I tell them what I'm going to tell them. I tell them and then I tell them what I told them. While I'm telling them, I'm telling them three things. I'm breaking it up into three things, and by the end of it I've shown that our solution by the punch. And then the power of three that I've shown them. I've shown them that our solution does the job. And then the close is well, you know when the close is done properly, because at the end the customer says, well, how do I buy your product?
0:25:50 - Alex
How much does it cost? Yeah, and how much does it cost. What's the right plan that you recommend? Right, exactly.
0:25:56 - Glenn
And so, and if they're not at that mode, you kind of did something wrong and you probably need to start over because you're probably not going to move the needle there. If they're ambivalent, right, and I mean and there I have other rules as well, which is important to understand that the I don't always win the business, because there's many, many things in play, right, and one of them is often, you know, there's a preference for a vendor, right, there might be a preferred major purchase agreement where they get a discount or they get. You know, we're Canadian right, so we always talk about Canadian tire money, right, where if you buy a Canadian tire, you know you get money back. Right, and you select the, you save the Canadian tire money and then you go buy useless stuff at the hardware store that you don't need, right, but but I mean, maybe they have that in play with the other vendor and you don't have that with them. Right, you don't have an MPA with them or something, and so so the other rules, even after I've done my presentations and stuff, and if I can't close them or they're not closing themselves, then one of the other things important to mention now is that I'd rather be last than second right. So what I'm trying to always do is figure out where I am in the pecking order of getting the business, and the moment I figure out that I can't win the business, then I stop selling and I move on and I go and find the next customer before the guy who is winning has a chance to beat me there, so I can be the preferred vendor on the next deal, because being second is the most expensive loss that you'll have, because you almost win but you get nothing right. You probably expended more than the winning vendor did and you got nothing.
So a lot of times what people would do is they'll fly people in from the factory or they'll take you to the main head office. Let us take you to head office. And why didn't you go for a steak dinner? And blah, blah, blah. You're still not getting the business right, and so the sooner you realize that you categorically can't win, you need to graciously extract your resources and move them onto a new file. You're not rude. You don't pack up your stuff and walk out. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is you don't say oh like, oh, I can see you're not really sold. Let us get a trial unit and something like that, not to say you don't use trial units, but you only use trial units up to the point where you know you're still in the game, right. When you deliver the trial unit, let's say, and you find out there's nine of your competitors' units running at full speed right beside you. You're not getting the order right.
0:28:22 - Alex
So you're still wasting your research. So what I'm hearing and this is really helpful for folks like me to hear who are, you know, in the digital world where sometimes the incremental cost does have a human component but doesn't have a physical hardware component, you have these very, so the cost of losing for you is actually much higher because you have to. You know, because of the nature of the product, you need to go see the tour of the factory or the tour of the location. So it's really really important for you to know are these people for real? Are they interested in you? Or you call them B or C or D, right, and you want to avoid the B, c and D at all costs because this is a reputational impact, time impact, trial unit impact, right, so you should really be. And so what are the? What are these signs? Right? Like that, somebody who's not looking for you, right?
0:29:23 - Glenn
I just want to tell you the second half of the I'd rather be last than second, which is important especially for younger people that so you know you may find, hey, you know, you quit your job to go into sales. You heard you couldn't make good money and you get this company and you're out with this business and you know, you're a month or two in and you realize, hey, I'm selling the number three or the number four brand, right, like, you know, like, 80% of the time they're buying brand A, 80% of the rest of the time they're buying brand B and I'm competing for the last 4% of business with brand C and D. Right, and no matter how I put lipstick on a pig, I'm selling brand C or brand D, which means I'm only going to be able to compete on 4% of the business. And my time the last time I checked is just as valuable as the size of sales brand A and brand B, right.
And so I recommend to those young people quit as soon as possible, right, like, if you're going to go into sales, you need to like be. You know, you need to be planning your career trajectory in a way that is, like you know, cognizant that every minute in your life counts, right, and if you're wasting time selling crappy brands, right then you will be less successful than the bed. So so use those few months to hone your skills and trade up right and get to the better and the biggest and the best companies and always sell the best products you can possibly sell, because the reality is that oftentimes it's, it's above and beyond the sales person's capability. You know, if you're selling a subclass brand, you're just not going to get the business, even if you're the best sales guy in town. That's what I'm trying to say.
0:31:05 - Alex
Yeah, and I think this is really important for salespeople to really understand the nature of the company and the business. Because any company, right, and you're the CEO and founder of your business before you sold it. Right, you have a, you have a choice. Right, you could reposition your business right to a different subsegment of customers, as an example, where you are going to be a, but in another segment you're going to be D, exactly, and that that service where, like, sales and marketing and go to market really need to come together. Right, because if you're getting feedback from sales team, right, and let's say competent sales team that, hey, we're just, we're coming up in these deals, we're coming into late, we're not the preferred choice, yada, yada, yada. But then there's a pocket that you know is working right. Right, the question is like let's find that pocket, let's find pocket number two, let's expand that, and that's where that sounds like.
0:31:59 - Glenn
That's sort of a combination of go to market with sales, right, and so is that the answer for a lot of your clients that are kind of thinking through okay, yeah, and another good story that I like to tell is like the chapter on the reverse Midas touch right, which is where everything you touch turns to shit. Right versus gold. Right, midas touches, everything you touch turns to gold. And what happens with entrepreneurs is that they start a business and they become successful right. Like, let's say, you're selling nuts and bolts and all of a sudden you become the number one nuts and bolts sales sales company supplier in the tri-state area. Right, and if it's nuts then it's bolts. You're getting most of the business right. And all of a sudden you decide well, hey, you know what? There's a lot of nuts and bolts in trailers that utility trailers that are customers. So, let's, let's start a division making trailers, right, so we can sell them their bolts and then they can go around the side and pick up their trailer and now we can get their trailer business. And the thing is is that you know you're a savant at running a nuts and bolts business and you spend 97% of your time running that business and it still makes lots of money. And you sent start sending profits over to the trailer division, where you're spending 3% of your time and there's no God given right that that that trailer business just going to magically be successful because you're successful at nuts and bolts. But your brain tells you that you deserve it right and you often spread yourself too thin and you find that you're taking the profits from the good stuff and spending it on the on the unprofitable stuff. And it takes a while for reality to sink in, and so you have to be really careful about how you invest your time and your money in a as an entrepreneur thinking well, I'm perfect at selling nuts and bolts, so whatever I touch is going to turn to gold. It doesn't work that way.
And in 19, sorry, in 2019, we grew to 80 people and we had several trailer divisions that we started, if I can use the analogy right, and we had to because of losses in those other divisions and in order to say, you know, sort of resurrect and save the, the heart and soul of the business. We had to go from 80 people to 29 people in a restructuring, and that was the you know, probably the most complex and difficult business choice I ever had to make. But but, after making that choice and selling off a couple of divisions and restructuring a few people out of the business, we went on to have our most profitable, profitable years and then sold the business for what we thought was a record, you know, sort of win. You know, three years later, right, and we never.
We were, we were looking at losing millions of dollars, and we turned it around to you know the opposite and then sold the business right. And so, like you know, you really you really need to, you know, make sure, just like you were saying, like, find your stuff where you're good at your a brand and focus on your a and and defer from the B or the C right. And you know, and those little decisions that you make as a leader, what will define the business right? And yeah, so to me it, you know it, I learned that lesson really well.
0:35:18 - Alex
So. So, if we could have wrap up on kind of core takeaways that you wish you could have told your like this is one of them. But your younger self, right as you're starting out in kind of as a leader, as a sales leader, what would? What would you say you know, other than picking the right, the right engine to yeah yourself to, what would be the advice that you have for folks?
0:35:45 - Glenn
So so one thing is like the money is good grade and it's a. It's a nice little scorecard, right, but it will never fundamentally change your, your state of being. I have a good chapter on being miserable in the book and I highly recommend people read it, and I have your miserability index is what I call it and money will not change your level of miserable or happiness ever. And, as a matter of fact, the more money you get, especially when you sell a business, your life becomes more complicated, right? How do I keep the money? What do I do with the money? How do I not lose the money? I mean, now I don't have the business anymore, so if I screw it up, I'm dead. You know like.
There's just so many things, right, so the money will never change. You always think about the money sort of as a scorecard that you're, you know, as an indication of how well you're doing, just like you know you're when you're running a race, or you know you're, you know doing a racing miles or whatever, how fast per mile you go and you want to improve it. It's the same thing about your earning and things like that. The money in and of itself will never change you and the really clamoring for it is actually more fun than actually just getting it, because once you get it and you've got it it's it's anti climate, human nature is that? Yeah, it's really bizarre.
0:36:57 - Alex
We have it's enjoying the journey is what I'm enjoying the journey, absolutely, yeah, enjoying, and, we know, one of the things I love about podcasts is that we get a chance to talk to people like yourself, and I'm enjoying the fact that I'm learning from you, from what you've gone through.
Yeah, and so what would be your kind of reversing to that for an entrepreneur? That is, you know, really looking to capture the nuggets, like the ones that you've shared with us, and build it into into something that's a bit more scalable, right, like, say, whether it's a system like you've written down, with some tips, right and like. But what we really want is to create the types of, in our case, communication workflows that help sales people kind of apply best practices, right, and, and do it in a way where it's not coming from, you know, I'm the CXO and I'm telling you to do this, or I'm the CRM administrator and I'm telling you to do this. Well, how do you kind of shift, you know, shift the minds of the sales team and their behaviors in a way that's pleasant, right, in a way that is, you know, motivates them to pool, versus you pushing, pushing, pushing on them?
0:38:19 - Glenn
So I find like it's more general principles that really end up being the winning. Like you know, you could put in the you know, like I'm just making this up, you know, the power sales plan for sales team to try to motivate them or whatever, and all those things. They're sure that might be ones better than the other ones five star rated sales program or the other but really what the sales people want is to follow the vision of a leader, of leaders that actually know what the hell they're doing and and walk the walk and talk the talk right. And so what they want to know is what's the plan right and what's the vision for the company that I work for? How am I going to you know how? How am I going to benefit from working with this company and how my customers going to benefit from working with me? They want you clear cut path to those kinds of visions and stuff. And you know, working with a set of very well defined and enforced core values right, higher fire, motivate, train, reward, etc. On the core values and seeing the leaders do that right. Hey, this guy's a superstar salesman but he doesn't meet the core values. He's dishonest. He's this, that whatever. I'm sorry, you're not the right fit, we're letting you go right, and they want to see you doing those kinds of things.
The biggest thing about is you know they want to follow leaders that can lead right, and I always caution entrepreneurs that when you're in that position of being a leader, then your your real job is not actually to be the best in every one of your departments finance, marketing, sales, shipping, receiving, finance, logistics you know that's not your job as the entrepreneur to know it all and be all super smart and all of it. Your job is to make the decisions for the team that you hire and make proper, timely decisions, especially under stressful conditions, right and so. And to hold frame and so when people say, hey, look, you know the, you know the price of containers, gone from 5000 per container to ship from China to Canada from $25,000. What are we going to do? Right, like the, they need answers, right, and you have to give them decisions and make decisions for the business. And and if you can, if you can present yourself as someone that can make decisions and follow and lead, then people will naturally follow you, including the sales team, and really most people want to follow a good leader, right and so if you're in that position of leadership, then lead. You know, don't, don't think you have to work harder than anyone else. You know you have to make decisions and you need to show leadership to the team.
And the final thing I want to say is that the you know people say this all the time because it's true, right, it's really the people that you hire into your business that will govern whether you're successful or not, and every one of them is so vitally important that you know you want to hire really, really, really slowly and you want to fire super fast. The moment someone's not working out, fire them. You're doing your both a favor. There's no performance improvement plans, all that stuff. No, the moment that you realize, even if it's the first hour, that they're working there, you're fired. I'm sorry, we're doing both a favor. And be very slow to hire right until like oh well, you know my cousin's nephew. You know he studied web design in grade seven, so maybe we can get him to work on the website. No, no, no, you're not doing that Like.
You need to hire the absolute best possible person that you can afford in every role, at every step, and if you've done it perfectly as an entrepreneur, your job will be nothing. You'll have no job to do because every one of your departments will be perfectly led by a perfectly more competent than you. That it than you, and all you need to do is give them the decisions that they need to do their job. You know, can we spend $50,000 on a new software system? Can we buy a new packing machine for $100,000, you know we're having trouble with this. What do we do? You know the bank. You know blah, blah, blah. Whatever right, you need to make those decisions and show the vision for the company and the leadership and and decision making, and that's really what an entrepreneur needs to do.
0:42:29 - Alex
And and the reason was success. Thank you, thank you so much for sharing. We've learned about, you know, hand to hand sales engagements and kind of how to do them as humans versus kind of playing roles. Right, we learned a ton about leadership and and I'll shoot just thinking about how do you build the type of organization that helps people succeed inside that organizations for value. So, thank you so much, thank you so much. Where can people find you?
0:43:00 - Glenn
Basically go to Glenn Poulos, calm and you can link to all my LinkedIn and everywhere else from there, and they want to get a hold of me. Specifically, linkedin's the best spot really active on there. They can connect with me and send me a message and happy to talk to anybody that wants to discuss anything Amazing. Thank you so much, glenn thanks for joining us. Thank you, alex. Thanks for having me.