See the show notes for this episode: S 01 | Ep 44 The Power of Aligning Marketing, Customer Experience and Team Engagement | Show notes.
0:00:00 - Alex Shevelenko
Welcome to Experience-focused Leaders! I am delighted to introduce you to Barry LaBov, President and CEO of LaBov Marketing Communications and Training. Barry is a former rock musician. There are very few rock musicians, as far as I know, who have also received the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award twice and have been inducted into the Entrepreneur Hall of Fame. Barry is also the author of the book “Power of Differentiation,” which is near and dear to my heart. Barry, welcome to the pod!
0:00:32 - Barry LaBov
Thank you, Alex! This is great. I'm looking forward to this, and let’s have a lot of fun!
0:00:38 - Alex Shevelenko
One of the reasons we love having you on is that we actually dug up one of your quotations that is basically music to our users and aligns with what our audience is looking for. I'll quote you: you said, “Marry the message to the experience. The marketing and promotion should be congruent with the actual experiences the customer receives.” So let’s dig into this and unpack it for our audience. How should we think about it?
0:01:17 - Barry LaBov
I think that's a great question. One thing that many of us don't realize is the importance of differentiation. That's a 15-letter, six-syllable word. It's like, “Oh my gosh, we have to be differentiated in the marketplace; otherwise, we’ll be forced into becoming a commodity.” And we don't want to do that because, Alex, you know this, I know this, and your audience does too: if you're forced into being a commodity, you really have only one way to go, which is to lower your price and cut corners on everything you're doing. So we don’t want to do that.
I call it the commodity monster. The commodity monster will devour you because you can't please it. You’ve got to get cheaper, less interesting, and lower quality, and shove it out the door even if it’s not ready. So we don’t want that. None of us want that. Your question is tremendous because you’re asking, “Okay, but what about the experience?” This is what's amazing.
You can have a wonderful product, whether it's a truck, computer, whatever it is. But if the experience for the consumer or the owner of that product is bad, they will tell you your brand is bad. The consumer does not distinguish between the experience and the brand itself. If it's a lousy experience, your brand is terrible. I hate it, and I'll never buy it again. I'll tell everybody I know not to walk into that store ever again. That’s how important the experience is.
0:03:14 - Alex Shevelenko
This is music to my ears. When customers ask me, “Alex, what's your single three-letter word on what we should be paying attention to in our communications in particular?” my answer is that experience is the message. It's a riff on Marshall McLuhan's saying, “The medium is the message.” But I think that's outdated because everybody's using these mediums, right?
The thing that people will remember is the experience of consuming that message, and that experience comes before the product. The traditional saying is, “You judge a book by its cover.” What we are effectively saying is that you judge many things by the experience you anticipate you'll get from them. If you come up with a commodity-looking product that everybody else delivers in a commodity way, you're just lost in the noise.
0:04:52 - Barry LaBov
If we use an example, let's say it's an auto manufacturer and it's a great brand, a brand that we aspire to. Let's say that they have 800 different salespeople at 200 different dealerships. Well, do they have one overall experience, or do they have maybe 800 experiences? When you have 800 or even 200 different experiences, that's a mess. Think about how many times a customer will walk into that dealership; for example, if the salesperson is terrible, they don't pay attention to the customer, they're condescending, and they don't even know the product that they're trying to sell. That customer walks out and thinks, “I'll never buy that product, and I'll tell everybody else to never buy that product.” Meanwhile, the people sitting at corporate who built the car don't even know this happened. They think they built this masterpiece, but someone who was not trained, who did not believe in or have the passion for the product, just destroyed its image forever in the hearts and minds of that consumer.
0:06:12 - Alex Shevelenko
And I think, to your point, it could even be that the vehicle is great, the ad campaign, that Super Bowl spot is amazing and super creative. But then there are the touchpoints in terms of interactions.
You're doing some research and it's like, “This is the future of the futures!” Then you actually dig into it, you need to download a bunch of PDFs and you're on your phone. And there's a discongruence between “We are the future, we are innovation, we're better experience” and “Welcome to 1990s format. That is great for print.” But it's not like we're shoving it in front of you digitally and you're doing this little thing on your phone to try to experience this car, which should be a video or reused advertising. Then, enable that sales rep, like in your case, to feel what they're selling and to be on brand with the message and the vision that you're projecting.
0:07:43 - Barry LaBov
I think one thing to share with the audience is sometimes, as we work with companies on their experience, they feel like, “Oh my gosh, we cannot make a mistake or we've lost a customer, and it means our experience is terrible!” And I'll just tell you that's not true. Customers will be very forgiving. They're not looking for perfection but they do want sincerity and respect. You know, if a woman walks into a certain store and someone says, “Well, honey, I’ll wait for your husband to come in,” that’s disrespectful, right? So that’s something that’s not acceptable.
Now, if you have a complex product, I’ve got news for you: it’s probably going to break down or have a flaw here and there because it’s complex. All of us are very forgiving of that. We’re just not forgiving of being treated poorly. So when there’s an error, part of the experience needs to be, “Hey, wait a minute, I’m owning up to it; let me fix it. Hey, Alex, I’ll be right over; we’ll get that thing fixed. Hey, I’ve got you on the schedule; we’ll make sure we get this fixed for you.”
Well, all of a sudden, you’re thinking, “You know what? I love that guy. He’s amazing. This brand is great.” So it’s not about perfection. That’s what we call “the perfect trap.” You fall into this trap thinking, “Oh my gosh, if we make a mistake, if the product isn’t perfect, we’re done.” But it’s not like that. It has to be in sync with your brand. If we are a high-tech brand, are we providing a high-tech experience? Or, like you said, is it a 1990s experience, while we have a space-age brand?
0:09:26 - Alex Shevelenko
Yeah, and I love that you brought up this topic. One of my favorite quotes from your body of work is, “Don’t confuse differentiation with perfection.” This is so true. I would say I’m a little guilty of it myself. I come from some academic pedigree where they try to drill into you that you need to get everything right.
As an entrepreneur, I’ve learned that there are some areas where you can’t cut corners, but overall, it’s about spirit, authenticity, and congruence. So I love it. And there are also imperfections. What we're finding is the imperfections are actually an opportunity to build a stronger relationship. Because when everything goes super smoothly, it may not be noticeable. It may be great and efficient, but it may not be noticeable. The moment of truth is when you have a problem.
0:10:58 - Barry LaBov
Right, Alex, that's so brilliant! I hope your audience really takes note of what you said because when there is an issue, that is your opportunity to prove, “Hey, I care; I’m here; I will make sure this is right.” You're actually building a relationship, and there are statistics out there that show, as you said, if you have a product that’s, let’s say, a utility company, how many of us are in love with the electric company?
0:11:26 - Alex Shevelenko
I mean, none of us.
0:11:28 - Barry LaBov
Why? Because we just expect the lights to go on. I mean, who cares? Right, it’s working, and almost all the time it works, so we go, “Okay, fine, who cares?” That’s not what we create in our minds when we think of loyalty. That’s not loyalty; that’s a utilitarian thing, and that’s okay. But when there is an issue, statistically, it has been found that if that issue is solved, the customer is more likely to become loyal and to repeat business with you. So what you said is exactly right: we have to make it clear that we care, that we will solve it, and we don’t have to pretend or aspire to be perfect.
0:12:13 - Alex Shevelenko
Yeah, and I think the key here, which really relates to the services you offer, is who is doing that on the front lines, right? Sometimes it’s you or sometimes it’s me, but we’re here. I’m using this podcast as a way to be consistent with the brand, whether in the delivery of the product or service. You had this great quote that as a business leader, differentiation is obviously about sales and market share, but you believe it’s even more important that differentiation helps capture the hearts and minds of your team because they are joining you on the journey of building a truly differentiated company. This really resonated with me. Do you mind unpacking that a bit further for our audience? Because everyone understands differentiation for sales and capturing market share, but I think the relationship for the team is a little less obvious.
0:13:40 - Barry LaBov
I'd love to unpack it. It’s my passion, what you just shared. The subtitle of my book is Win Hearts, Minds, and Market Share, and if you really think about it, that’s the order. We need to look at how we express what makes us unique. We’ve got to win the hearts of our people and their minds. They need to feel emotionally moved and also think, "This really is smart." And then, we will get our customers—the people who will buy our product. Here’s what’s important.
If we talk about experience, which is so important, let's take a moment to consider this: how likely is it, whether you have a great product or not, that if you do not share the magic of the product, do not explain the why and how behind it, and do not celebrate it with the very people who built or represent it, that those people will present an experience filled with passion? They become disenfranchised. They are merely selling something put together by some executives or people in lab coats and shipped out to them. We have to understand that today, more than ever in our history, it is easy for people to leave a job.
It is easy to become skeptical of what a company does or what it stands for, and this is a fact. People need significance. I believe that if we can provide someone with significance in what they do, show them that there is meaning behind their work, and explain that our company is focused on a specific mission, it makes a difference. When employees understand that when they work with customers, they are not just selling a product or taking an order but are helping customers understand something or improve their lives, they feel a sense of purpose. When employees realize that they play a major role in this, I guarantee they will deliver a far better and more meaningful experience.
0:15:55 - Alex Shevelenko
This is so interesting. I wasn’t planning or timing this, but we recently redesigned and refreshed our “mojo” at my company, RELAYTO. I’d love to run this by you as a thought experiment and get your critique. I think we share a similar perspective, and we are privileged to work in digital and software products where everyone can contribute—from QA and platform development to adapting that platform for specific marketing, sales, and communication solutions, all the way to the customer. We’re fortunate in that regard, but it’s still work, so we wanted to codify this. We could discuss values more, but “mojo” adds a bit of fun. I’m going to quickly share my screen for the YouTube audience to show an image from our careers section.
We tried to make it inspirational, like a sports brand—you might even recognize the Adidas stripes here. It’s obviously about work, but we consciously added the word “consciously” to reflect our belief in conscious leadership, becoming more self-aware, and sharing more of ourselves. We wanted to combine that with “work smart” because, historically, startups have emphasized working hard, constantly pushing forward.
Interestingly, the customers come second. They don’t come first because the way we work determines the customer impact. We want to create that “wow” factor. If we do legendary work and achieve great things with our customers, we make an impact. Since our product focuses on publishing and reimagining publications, we believe in writing history. But that ultimate impact only happens when everything is done right. That’s the theme behind it. What do you think of this approach? Could you critique it and guide us on whether it’s catchy and practical enough? You’re the expert here.
0:18:18 - Barry LaBov
Well, here are some things I think are great, and here’s what I like about them. First of all, you're showing humans. Think about how many websites you visit where there are no humans. And if you do see humans, they’re often in the background. They look unkempt, and they don’t seem to be enjoying what they’re doing. So, you visit these websites and don’t even know if humans work there or if there’s any connection to humanity.
Another thing you did here that’s really good is giving meaning, and you can present it directly. Imagine finding meaning and joy at work. Meaning is very, very critical. What you also did well is starting with the right focus, which is the employee, as you mentioned. If we do not realize our employees are most important, we're making a mistake. I just worked with a really fine accounting firm. I said that to them, they looked at me and said, “What do you mean? The customer is more important.” I go, “If your employees are not buying into the mission, they're not taking care of the customers.” They have to buy into the mission, and your customers have to love your employees. If employees aren’t buying into the mission, they won’t take care of the customers. Employees must buy into the mission, and your customers should love them. Right? They say, "Yeah," and I say, "Your employees are the most important. There's no question about it." And they respond, "We never thought of it that way." I explain, "I’m not trying to be a nice guy; it’s just reality." You demonstrated it right there—people come first. And here’s the final thing I’ll say that I think is important.
I have a customer, mentioned in my book, who really inspired me. We were meeting for the first time, and I asked, "What do you want to achieve with this project?" He was a boisterous guy, and I wasn’t sure what to expect. I said, "Really?" He replied, "Yeah, I want to take my brand and do something that has never been done before. We’re doing pretty well as a brand, but I want to make history." What you mentioned about writing history—making history—captures that perfectly. Let’s write and rewrite history. Here’s what that does, Alex: it makes your goal and vision bigger than any one person. It’s bigger than an individual. Think about how your people will view this.
It doesn’t say, "Make sure you do a really good job because Alex wants you to." Think of other companies: "Make sure you do a really good job so our stockholders make more money off your hard work." We're saying, "Hey, those are all good things, nice results. But you know what? Let’s do something historically great. Let’s do something that has never been done before." That’s a higher calling. What you're doing there is really checking all the boxes of what’s needed. The employee comes first. Wowing and inspiring the customer comes next—not just taking the customer's order. You have to wow them and think beyond what they know.
0:21:29 - Alex Shevelenko
It’s the experience, it’s what we were talking about.
0:21:32 - Barry LaBov
Exactly.
0:21:33 - Alex Shevelenko
And then we need to do something incredible, something that inspires both us and the customer. The idea is to make history. The book, a 500-year-old iconic format for conveying human knowledge, is being personalized and adapted to cross-media formats, making it suitable for us on multiple levels.
I agree that the best companies and teams view their work as a calling. Unfortunately, religion often doesn’t play as significant a role in our lives anymore, and national identities can be divisive. One of the opportunities we have is to imbue our work with meaning. Whether our product writes history or helps our customers write theirs, there are multiple ways to connect this idea. This makes life worth living, and it's part of why we have a goal of creating a 100-year company—a legacy of impact. Are you seeing that the most differentiated and impactful brands also aim for this epic, long-term influence? How does this connect to the world-changing differentiation paradigm you’re introducing?
0:23:19 - Barry LaBov
That's a great question. The very best brands that come to mind have goals that go beyond next quarter's earnings on Wall Street. They go well beyond that. They have a purpose, a reason for what they do. And as you said earlier, this doesn't mean they claim to be perfect. Differentiation is not about being perfect or superior; it’s about saying, "This is what we do, this is how we do it, and why." This is the experience we deliver. It may not be perfect, and I can guarantee it won’t be perfect for everyone. It might not be perfect for a particular company or customer.
The idea is that we need to have a purpose greater than any one person or just ourselves. It has to be about making a difference. People today, as you mentioned, whether in terms of religion, politics, or other matters, live in a skeptical world. The leader of a company is often viewed as either evil or incompetent—or an unusual combination of both, which is challenging. What we need to realize as leaders is that we are not here to be served; we are here to serve. Our first priority in serving is our employees. They need to understand that they are here for a meaningful purpose, right? If they don’t believe in that, as I said a few minutes ago, then why should they care? Why should they do a good job?
The best brands, and they don't have to be large, say, "Look, it's not about us. We have a vision and a calling to do something we truly believe in, something that excites us, and we have ignited that passion in our employees. You are going to feel it." We won't be perfect. We will make mistakes, but we will be humble and ensure they are corrected. We are here to help you and make your life better, and that’s what gives us significance.
0:25:31 - Alex Shevelenko
What an amazing wrap-up for our audience, Barry. You’ve lit the fire for me and our audience. Where can people find you, learn more about the book, and get started on this journey?
0:25:45 - Barry LaBov
I’d love for people to join me on this journey. My goal is to move the hearts and minds of 1 million people with our message. One million people isn’t that many, and we’re going to surpass that goal. We are working with one company that has 16,000 people, and we’re going to help inspire their entire network.
The best way to reach me is by going to my company's website, labov.com, or my personal site, barrylabov.com. Reach out, send me a message, ask a question, or sign up to learn about my upcoming book, The Power of Differentiation, which will be available for pre-order in a few weeks. We won't send you an invoice for it; we’ll simply let you know when it goes into pre-order if you're interested. Feel free to contact us. We also have a few free documents available for download. We are here to make a difference, and even if we don't end up working with a company, helping them is part of our mission. If we’ve helped improve the world just a bit or impacted a few thousand people for an organization, that’s what we’re about. That’s how we roll.
0:26:57 - Alex Shevelenko
That’s how we roll. Amazing, Barry. Thanks so much for inspiring us and sharing your message of being different and encouraging the team to connect with the overall mission and vision of the business.