See show notes for this episode: S 02 | Ep 17 Your Documents Speak Louder Than You Think
Alex Shevelenko [00:00 - 00:34]
Today's guest is Stephan Kuhnert, co-founder and co-CEO of Empower, the leading software suite for Microsoft Office.
Alex Shevelenko [00:34 - 01:01]
With over 3 million users worldwide, including more than half of Germany's DAX companies—Germany's largest enterprises—he helps organizations save time, boost productivity, and ensure brand consistency in every document they create. An interesting note: one of their customers is Microsoft itself. Stephan, welcome to the pod.
Stephan Kuhnert [01:02 - 01:21]
Thank you, Alex. It's a pleasure to be here.
Alex Shevelenko [01:21 - 01:45]
Well, Stephan, you and I go back as partners and users of each other's software. We love that you help people make the most of their Microsoft 365 investments and then leverage us where appropriate to bring it to life when it needs to be shared externally for impact and measured for engagement. So let's dive into this Microsoft ecosystem. You've been an observer of what works in Redmond.
Alex Shevelenko [01:46 - 01:54]
And you've been observing what works far from Redmond as well, in some of the most conservative companies in Germany, which is relatively small.
Alex Shevelenko [01:55 - 02:25]
Germany is well known as not necessarily the earliest adopter of cloud technologies. So, what have you seen over—let's say your career—from starting out with the first scripts all the way to now, with AI as the biggest evolution in how people use Microsoft 365?
Stephan Kuhnert [02:24 - 02:42]
Oh, wow. That's a huge one. I mean, back in the day—we started out 16 years ago—every two or three years there was a new Office version. People were always wondering whether it was worth upgrading or not.
Stephan Kuhnert [02:42 - 03:07]
What really stood out to me back then were the “final” files: final, final version two, final. Then you would do the copy-pasting, update the date, the names of the people—yeah, okay. That was really my normal life. In my previous life, I was a consultant, so I was doing it all the time.
Stephan Kuhnert [03:08 - 03:29]
Now it has changed a lot. With Microsoft 365, nearly all clients are moving to the cloud. That was a nice evolution—you can now spend time on one file, no sync conflicts anymore. We had those conflicts in the beginning, but now you can literally work on a single file without creating hundreds of versions. You have a backup and you’re not scared. That was the most profound change in the way we work with Office so far.
Stephan Kuhnert [03:29 - 03:47]
Of course, AI is ahead of us. Exciting things are coming very soon, but they are not there yet, I would say. We still have hopes for how things can become really helpful rather than being already fully integrated into the software.
Alex Shevelenko [03:47 - 04:19]
What have you seen as the challenges for clients in adopting your products or even getting more value from what they’ve already done with Microsoft?
Stephan Kuhnert [04:19 - 04:37]
Well, I think, in the end, it’s probably what many software companies face: the common patterns people use, right? People are not always willing to change behavior and continue doing things the same old way. Probably every one of us is a little bit like that.
Stephan Kuhnert [04:37 - 04:53]
Even with progress in Microsoft products themselves, you often see the exact same behaviors as people used when new features were not available.
Stephan Kuhnert [04:53 - 05:21]
People with smartphones expect software to be as easy as a simple phone app. The moment there are too many buttons or it’s too complicated, even if powerful features are available, only a fraction of people are willing to invest the time and training to learn the software. That is the biggest challenge for all software makers, even if it’s not an easy problem to solve.
Alex Shevelenko [05:21 - 05:43]
You need to make it as easy as possible because people are not willing to invest much time, I think. And when you think of time, one of the things I remember from starting my career at Microsoft is the design process.
Alex Shevelenko [05:43 - 06:05]
An investment in Microsoft was specifically built for people to just dump information into the solution. So, why are we all using bullets? Because it was much easier to get the bullets out than to actually write a complete…
Alex Shevelenko [06:06 - 06:31]
…sentence. And from a design perspective, as you know, and as you coach your clients, sometimes you need bullets, but sometimes you can accomplish the same objectives visually without the bullet symbol. For a number of reasons, both through the ubiquity of the platform and its history,
Alex Shevelenko [06:31 - 06:54]
people got into a lot of bad design habits when using Microsoft products. Then you’re coming in and working with sophisticated brand people inside some of the largest companies in the world that have their brand guidelines.
Alex Shevelenko [06:54 - 07:18]
They want to enforce at least consistency, and sometimes better design. There’s always tension between deadlines, timing, non-savvy users needing to get the information out, and staying on track with standards.
Alex Shevelenko [07:18 - 07:33]
Particularly, the people using the 365 suite are more likely to fall into this than, for example, a designer trained in Adobe InDesign who knows why pixel-perfect, on-brand messaging matters because they’re part of the marketing team.
Alex Shevelenko [07:33 - 08:00]
Describe that tension to us. I think many teams could learn how to enforce standards because even in smaller organizations, when new people join—and obviously, the larger the organization, the riskier it gets—this becomes a big moment.
Stephan Kuhnert [08:01 - 08:25]
Yeah, absolutely. As you described, the main point is that Microsoft itself calls Microsoft 365 productivity software—it’s not branding software. That’s by design. They care about productivity: just dump your text into your document, spreadsheet, or presentation.
Stephan Kuhnert [08:25 - 08:52]
In PowerPoint, the default is headline with bullets. I read one statistic—though I can’t recall the source, maybe a Microsoft study a few years ago—that 70% of all slides in the world are bullet lists. That’s pretty accurate because it’s the default: you just put in your short text. Let me repeat that for our audience: 70% of all slides in the world are bullet lists.
Alex Shevelenko [08:52 - 09:09]
And we know that bullet lists are not necessary most of the time.
Stephan Kuhnert [09:09 - 09:29]
Absolutely. The user has this tension of getting things done. Workloads are more intense over time, so people have to create many documents and presentations for meetings. Even internal meetings require a presentation.
Stephan Kuhnert [09:30 - 09:46]
Most people are not designers. Microsoft is not enforcing any brand guidelines, and most enterprise users are not designers. The result is obvious: people waste a lot of time, and the output suffers.
Stephan Kuhnert [09:47 - 10:04]
More than 50% of all documents don’t even come close to following brand guidelines. Wrong templates, wrong logos, wrong fonts—everything is wrong. Our software tries to solve this, but awareness is key.
Stephan Kuhnert [10:04 - 10:24]
You need someone in your organization who sees it as a problem—communication directors, ideally the CEO. Marketing used to be different from sales, but now, if you think about brand touchpoints,
Stephan Kuhnert [10:24 - 10:48]
especially for B2B brands, these touchpoints exist online and everywhere. If a customer or lead engages with you, and your presentations or materials are prepared by salespeople but not aligned with the brand, that’s a problem.
Stephan Kuhnert [10:48 - 11:07]
Then it really hurts. It’s measurable. In our latest study, which we conduct every four years, 94% of people said they experience some loss of trust when they see low-quality documents.
Stephan Kuhnert [11:07 - 11:35]
If you think about it, it’s very normal. If you’re working with a company and have a good impression—say, as a potential client—and you see their beautiful website and solution, but then a sales rep sends you a link with horrible design, something feels off. It’s hard to measure in numbers or sales impact, but it definitely affects perception.
Stephan Kuhnert [11:35 - 11:51]
We all know that’s not ideal. Companies invest millions in their brands and want every touchpoint with a client or potential client to reflect the same brand impression.
Stephan Kuhnert [11:51 - 12:15]
If this awareness exists, our software can help. But even if you don’t buy software, you can at least ensure that templates are automatically distributed when opening PowerPoint. It’s an easy trick to enforce that your master template is used. Most companies don’t do this; they hope people find the right template somewhere online, which hardly happens.
Stephan Kuhnert [12:15 - 12:25]
These are the initial steps. Then, with additional software like plugins, such as ours, you can ensure that
Stephan Kuhnert [12:25 - 12:51]
you can’t even go off-brand while being productive in Office. That’s the idea.
Alex Shevelenko [12:51 - 13:18]
It’s very interesting what you’re bringing up. Let’s talk about trust. We tend to measure engagement, so we’re closer to the revenue side of the equation. We definitely see the relationship you’re describing.
Alex Shevelenko [13:18 - 13:34]
When the message is on-brand, and we work with companies like yours that improve on-brand messaging in terms of deliverability and optimization, we see win rate increases of around 2x. That’s a measurable level of value.
Alex Shevelenko [13:35 - 14:00]
I’m 100% with you on that. Trust is one of those elusive notions, but we all understand it viscerally. For example, if you have typos in your CV or résumé, it immediately signals a lack of attention to detail. People assume you can’t be bothered to use a spellchecker or ChatGPT.
Alex Shevelenko [14:01 - 14:18]
First impressions often don’t come from text—they come from visual identity. We first see visuals when opening a page, a PowerPoint, or a Word document.
Alex Shevelenko [14:19 - 14:49]
If those visuals are messed up, not professional or on-brand, it immediately triggers a subconscious question: How professional is this? Can I trust them? You work with many German clients, where standards of professionalism are highly valued. So, what do you see culturally driving adoption of your solution?
Stephan Kuhnert [14:49 - 15:13]
That’s an interesting point. I’d like to make an analogy first. What you just said about visual appearance is so true. In today’s world, the first impression often comes from the document or the RELAYTO link.
Stephan Kuhnert [15:13 - 15:38]
It’s that initial impression: “Oh, this looks nice.” In the past, first impressions were physical—the salesperson would never go to a client with a dirty suit or shoes. Being neat was the first thing you learned in training.
Stephan Kuhnert [15:38 - 16:05]
It’s the same in digital. If you send a poor-quality document, it signals you don’t care. We often use the metaphor of checking your appearance before meeting a client—removing spinach from your teeth, brushing your teeth, avoiding stains on your shirt.
Stephan Kuhnert [16:05 - 16:10]
But there’s another level to the metaphor.
Stephan Kuhnert [16:10 - 16:40]
Even if your teeth and shirt are fine, if you’re wearing a suit from 1967, it feels completely out of place. You might have dug it out from your grandfather’s basement, but that doesn’t make a good impression. We want to make a great first impression, like dressing up for an important meeting or a date.
Alex Shevelenko [16:39 - 16:55]
To have a positive… even if we’re doing a messy look, it’s a studied messy look, right? Like it’s one that’s intentional.
Alex Shevelenko [16:55 - 17:21]
You’re talking about Diana? There you go. I was just thinking of your example. It’s a cool messy look—it’s not like… I don’t know, a careless or sloppy look.
Stephan Kuhnert [17:21 - 17:27]
To build on that, there’s basic hygiene, right? Do you have stains, unbrushed teeth—stuff that really signals you can’t take care of yourself?
Stephan Kuhnert [17:28 - 17:56]
Then there’s the second level: as a seller or as a company, you pay a lot of money to have a nice lobby, nice branding, things like that. But your documents—nobody steps into your lobby anymore. Before they talk to the rep, they see these assets. They don’t convey any of that; they just look like everybody else’s.
Alex Shevelenko [17:56 - 18:21]
So it sounds like this combo—the first impression “one-two punch”—is what really makes a difference. Is that how you see it as well?
Stephan Kuhnert [18:21 - 18:40]
Absolutely. With that 94% trust statistic, people today expect a high-quality impression at every touchpoint. Even in business, when you’re looking for a vendor—software, agency, or service—you compare multiple companies and their proposals.
Stephan Kuhnert [18:41 - 19:08]
If one document is polished and aligns perfectly with all the topics you discussed, and the other looks sloppy, it immediately creates an impression. You said you can measure it because you’re closer to sales, which is great. We’re broader, so we can’t do exact measurements, but I truly believe it makes a huge difference.
Stephan Kuhnert [19:08 - 19:29]
One person may speak to you directly, but they’re sharing your information with many others who never speak to you. That’s the challenge in sales today: you might reach one or two people directly, but the others are seeing your documents too. You want to make a good impression there.
Alex Shevelenko [19:29 - 19:56]
And what’s interesting—and what you’re doing with your data—is we’ve seen similar cases in purpose-built applications. We were chatting earlier about a FTSE 100 company, or DAX or CAC, like large enterprises publishing their most important assets—their annual reports, ESG, or sustainability reports. These are effectively their lobbies, which they spend millions on building and maintaining.
Alex Shevelenko [19:57 - 20:22]
But because of history, and the way things are usually done, they assume they just need to comply with the “boring” standards. Designing on-brand and on-message is hard.
Stephan Kuhnert [20:23 - 20:52]
Even the most analytical, skeptical people—financial analysts, for example—claim they aren’t influenced by presentation. But studies show that when the same people are given a well-designed versus a poorly designed document, they’re more persuaded by the well-designed one. And even more so if it’s in an industry where design is expected, like a marketing agency.
Stephan Kuhnert [20:53 - 21:13]
That effect was true, but it was somewhat expected because you kind of anticipate that a design agency will produce something visually appealing. In industries where you don’t expect it—like infrastructure, energy, or insurance—if the content looks more professional,
Stephan Kuhnert [21:13 - 21:34]
people are even more influenced. Analysts have a more positive reaction to what they’re seeing, and it’s 100% subconscious. They’re not even aware of it. I think that’s the beauty of what you’re doing: you’re enabling this professional sensibility.
Stephan Kuhnert [21:34 - 21:46]
Even people who don’t know why they like it, why they read it, or why they feel compelled to engage, you’re removing obstacles to engagement.
Stephan Kuhnert [21:46 - 22:07]
Absolutely. I think what we need to do—maybe both of our companies—is make it easy for normal business users, like me, who are not designers, which is most people in a corporation. We need to make it easy to produce highly professional content.
Stephan Kuhnert [22:07 - 22:34]
We all, or at least many of us, like Apple products for their design. We can detect good design and appreciate it, but we can’t reproduce it. I might look at a slide or a website and love it, but if I try to do it myself, it doesn’t look good. We need tools that help create really cool content.
Stephan Kuhnert [22:33 - 22:53]
It shouldn’t be my job as an engineer, sales rep, or controller to focus on design. It’s just important that the content looks professional.
Stephan Kuhnert [22:53 - 23:20]
With society evolving and social media and influencer culture, the expectation for high-quality content is even greater. The days when someone could say, “It doesn’t matter how it looks, it’s just about the facts,” are over. People realize there’s so much information out there, and it needs to be conveyed properly or it won’t be heard.
Alex Shevelenko [23:20 - 23:31]
That’s a beautiful metaphor. If I were to rephrase it, we are all becoming more sophisticated with an eye for design because we’re consumers of beautiful consumer apps in our everyday lives.
Alex Shevelenko [23:31 - 23:53]
Even if we don’t personally use Instagram, our kids do, and we see what they’re engaging with. That shapes our expectations.
Alex Shevelenko [23:53 - 24:17]
Even LinkedIn is starting to catch up—consumer-oriented business tools are becoming more visually polished. But there’s still a huge gap: the more complex and detailed the content, the harder it is to communicate clearly.
Alex Shevelenko [24:17 - 24:43]
People often start freeform in Word or PowerPoint unless there’s a structured container that enforces design standards. One great opportunity for organizations is to create an on-brand content library that can be personalized.
Alex Shevelenko [24:42 - 24:50]
You can take that library,
Alex Shevelenko [24:51 - 25:15]
deliver it through Empower and then Relayto, and users get smart navigation. You don’t need to create as much off-brand personalized content; you create it once, give people the ability to personalize it, and help them discover what they need efficiently.
Alex Shevelenko [25:14 - 25:37]
This also allows organizations to raise the bar. In the past, personalizing content meant creating countless unique items, which was hard to scale and introduced execution risks.
Alex Shevelenko [25:37 - 26:03]
Now, instead of creating thousands of unique pieces, you can create a journey that adapts to people while keeping the storytelling and structure strong. You bring structure into communications with agendas and tables of contents, which makes a huge difference.
Alex Shevelenko [26:04 - 26:29]
Built into a web-like experience via Relayto, users can navigate content, find what they need, and feel in control, rather than being intimidated by an 80-page PDF. These paradigms of trust and good design give complex ideas a chance to survive in today’s media environment.
Alex Shevelenko [26:29 - 26:45]
I’ve always been curious.
Alex Shevelenko [26:45 - 27:07]
Having sold in the past to Siemens, SuccessFactors, and other large German-born global organizations, there’s always this tension. You need documentation, especially in engineering- or science-led organizations. They have a really robust knowledge culture.
Alex Shevelenko [27:07 - 27:36]
But everyone is often overwhelmed with too much detail. How do you help your clients manage that?
Stephan Kuhnert [27:36 - 27:54]
What you say is absolutely true. We have lots of industrial clients, including the entire automotive industry. There’s a lot of engineering, which naturally leads to extensive documentation.
Stephan Kuhnert [27:54 - 28:15]
I’d say it’s also a German thing—Germans are quite rigid about guidelines, processes, and standards. Maybe that’s part of why we were successful starting in the German market. German clients were heavily interested in ensuring that documents look consistent and high-quality, even internally, which I love.
Stephan Kuhnert [28:15 - 28:33]
People often said, “If we don’t deliver on-brand documents internally, we’ll never be able to do it externally.” I like that because it removes the excuse of “I’ll just fix typos when I send it externally.”
Stephan Kuhnert [28:33 - 28:55]
If you never do it internally, you won’t catch typos or errors that get forwarded. There was one client—a very German company, huge—but they said, “Our product is documentation, like security certificates and technical content. That’s our product.”
Stephan Kuhnert [28:55 - 29:18]
He compared it to McDonald’s. Back in the day, if the Big Mac packaging was wrong, they wouldn’t sell the Big Mac in that store anymore. It’s the same with documents: the content is important, but presentation is part of the brand experience.
Stephan Kuhnert [29:18 - 29:31]
The takeaway: if you deliver to clients, it must be perfect. That mindset helped us start with Empower.
Stephan Kuhnert [29:32 - 29:51]
To be honest, it’s sometimes more challenging to instill this same attitude in American companies, although we have quite a few U.S. clients.
Alex Shevelenko [29:51 - 30:11]
How did Microsoft come about as a client? I’d love to hear that story.
Stephan Kuhnert [30:11 - 30:28]
There are different angles. One is the brand topic, but another is reusing assets, like huge slide libraries. Even using SharePoint or Teams, it’s challenging to find a specific slide. File-based search just returns entire decks, and you spend 10–30 minutes searching for one slide.
Stephan Kuhnert [30:28 - 30:54]
That was the Microsoft use case: a tool inside PowerPoint to find approved slides, put them together, and reuse content without reinventing the wheel.
Stephan Kuhnert [30:54 - 31:21]
Many clients, especially in engineering, have dedicated roles like technical writers to manage documentation. If no one manages it, it often ends in chaos. Systems with garbage in produce garbage out.
Stephan Kuhnert [31:21 - 31:50]
You need company commitment to organize knowledge and documentation. Software like ours helps, but it won’t magically fix things without that foundation.
Alex Shevelenko [31:50 - 32:14]
For everyone listening, we love supporting and promoting partners like Stephan and Empower. Stephan, where can people find you if they want to improve their documents, find key insights, and share them effectively?
Stephan Kuhnert [32:15 - 32:39]
Our website is empowersuite.com, which we’ll add to the show notes. I also publish frequently on LinkedIn, sharing best practices and tips on improving documents for free, without initially buying our software.
Alex Shevelenko [32:40 - 32:53]
Amazing. Let’s bring engineering precision and German rigor to the world of documents, PowerPoints, and Excel. Thank you so much, Stephan, for joining us.
Stephan Kuhnert [32:53]
Thank you, Alex.