See show notes for this episode: S 02 | Ep 42 Words Matter: The Secret to Winning in a Zero-Sum Market.
00:00:45,180 --> 00:00:58,140 [Alex Shevelenko]
Welcome. Today's guest is Michael Marcon. He is the founder and CEO of Symphony Risk Solutions, is a serial entrepreneur, and an author who is,
00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:13,140 [Alex Shevelenko]
in my view, one of the leading practitioners of thinking and applying the smartest communications techniques as a CEO to impact their business. Michael, welcome to the pod.
00:01:14,180 --> 00:01:17,580 [Michael Marcon]
Alex, great to see you. Great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
00:01:17,580 --> 00:02:35,660 [Alex Shevelenko]
Well, Michael, I, I'm flattered that you are, um, you saw the potential in Relato. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, like, honored to have you as an advisor and investor in our firm. Uh, but I, I think the purpose of this is to get a little bit of a download of how a successful serial CEO founder who understands ins and outs of, of a particular private equity-owned businesses, deals with private equity, how do you think about communications? Because, you know, for a lot of people, um, you say communications and then, you know, you s- you start thinking, oh, well this works for communications professionals. And I, you know, my take is communications is too important to be left to communications professionals. And you're, you had this vision, you know, for a while, way before we started with our work, on how to apply it and do it differently and interestingly. And so this is a platform to get a download so that other CEOs and people who wanna work with investors and, and senior leaders, you know, get, get a, get, get to think how do, how do you, um, deliver results, um, by, by communicating differently.
00:02:36,740 --> 00:03:14,180 [Michael Marcon]
Yeah. Well, um, it's a great question. It's how we basically connected, um, when I, when I first met you and got introduced to you based on the success you had in very early stages of Relato. And, and I think it's a, a, a great business model, by the way. Um, and I think what we, we connected on was a, a statement I made to you early on in our first discussion about how we approach interacting with clients, or more importantly, prospective clients. And the comment I used was, words matter.
00:03:14,180 --> 00:03:14,440 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:39,700 [Michael Marcon]
And, and I talk about that all the time internally to, to our team. Words matter. Um, and the reason that I say that is because I believe very strongly that, that clients and prospects make decisions subconsciously. Um, they get touched subconsciously. Yes, you can see the price.
00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:39,910 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:03:39,910 --> 00:03:56,700 [Michael Marcon]
Yes, you can see the, the terms and conditions. But anybody can present that to you as a, as a buyer of insurance, right? So I look at this as a, as a seller of insurance to people who are buying insurance. Well, if you think about that,
00:03:58,060 --> 00:04:09,049 [Michael Marcon]
every person who needs to buy insurance is already buying it, right? And, and so if you take that one step further, um, i- i- I look at it and say,
00:04:10,260 --> 00:04:11,790 [Michael Marcon]
my new business-
00:04:11,790 --> 00:04:11,790 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:04:11,790 --> 00:04:14,180 [Michael Marcon]
... for me to get a new client-
00:04:14,180 --> 00:04:14,540 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:04:14,540 --> 00:04:16,480 [Michael Marcon]
... somebody else has to lose a client,
00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:17,899 [Michael Marcon]
right?
00:04:17,899 --> 00:04:17,990 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:04:17,990 --> 00:04:27,840 [Michael Marcon]
Because it's a zero-sum game at this point. Every now and then a new c- a new coverage comes along and, and you can sell a new coverage, but it's not like selling an iPhone-
00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:28,040 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:53,130 [Michael Marcon]
... where no one ever had it before, and now you have eight billion potential customers on day one, right? W- we don't have that in insurance, so something has to differentiate relative to that decision maker. And if you assume that everybody has access to the same information, and everybody has access to the same insurance companies, so therefore everybody-
00:04:53,130 --> 00:04:53,130 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm
00:04:53,130 --> 00:04:55,800 [Michael Marcon]
... has access pretty much to the same price,
00:04:56,820 --> 00:05:07,310 [Michael Marcon]
then how are you going to differentiate yourself? And, and that's where I believe communication and presentation, so communication writ large.
00:05:07,310 --> 00:05:07,320 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:08,440 [Michael Marcon]
There's the words-
00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:08,860 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right
00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:13,390 [Michael Marcon]
... and then there's how those words are communicated and how those words are presented.
00:05:13,390 --> 00:05:13,390 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:05:13,390 --> 00:05:24,000 [Michael Marcon]
It's the combination of all of those things that you, you touch the person in here, not up here. You touch them in here. It's something about it. For example-
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:32,530 [Alex Shevelenko]
So, like, when you say in here, you basically mean, like, the crocodile brain. Like, the, do I trust this? Does this, does this resonate to me? Does this require-
00:05:32,530 --> 00:05:33,080 [Michael Marcon]
Exactly
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,400 [Alex Shevelenko]
... me out of, force me out of status quo of whatever I'm doing? It-
00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:38,320 [Michael Marcon]
Exactly.
00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:38,980 [Alex Shevelenko]
Okay. Got it.
00:05:38,980 --> 00:05:43,240 [Michael Marcon]
Well, it's, it's, it's also, it's also left brain, right brain, right?
00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:43,280 [Alex Shevelenko]
Okay.
00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:46,580 [Michael Marcon]
So, so I can read the words on the page, right?
00:05:46,580 --> 00:05:46,640 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,720 [Michael Marcon]
And I can read what they're saying to me, and, and I can calculate that, and I can comprehend it.
00:05:52,740 --> 00:06:06,760 [Michael Marcon]
And then there's the other, my, part of my brain that, how do those words move me, right? Everybody, almost everybody, and certainly you can use technology, et cetera, to touch this part of the brain. It's just-
00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:06,770 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right
00:06:06,770 --> 00:06:27,978 [Michael Marcon]
... here are the words, here are the facts, here are the details, right? How do I move them? So that when I'm looking at all of my choices, even though they all look relatively the same, I'm moved over here. This one's pulling me in a direction. Why, why is that? I'll give you a great example. The name of our firm.
00:06:27,978 --> 00:06:28,147 [Alex Shevelenko]
Hmm.
00:06:28,148 --> 00:06:41,798 [Michael Marcon]
The name of our firm is Symphony Risk. Now, I'm not picking on our competitors. You know, they're all very, very talented people. They all do a great job. But if you were, if you were completely,
00:06:42,888 --> 00:06:52,418 [Michael Marcon]
um, ignorant on anything that has to do with insurance, you knew nothing about it except you had to buy it from somebody, right?
00:06:52,418 --> 00:06:52,468 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:06:52,508 --> 00:06:54,568 [Michael Marcon]
And all you were given in front of you
00:06:55,668 --> 00:06:57,368 [Michael Marcon]
were names of firms.
00:06:58,708 --> 00:06:59,168 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:06:59,168 --> 00:07:01,728 [Michael Marcon]
And firm one is Hub,
00:07:02,828 --> 00:07:13,938 [Michael Marcon]
and firm two is Acrisure, and s- firm three is Gallagher, and firm four is Marsh, and firm five is WTW.
00:07:13,938 --> 00:07:13,988 [Alex Shevelenko]
Okay.
00:07:13,988 --> 00:07:19,048 [Michael Marcon]
And go right down the list, and then you have Symphony Risk.
00:07:19,048 --> 00:07:20,248 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:07:20,248 --> 00:07:21,428 [Michael Marcon]
And you say to the person,
00:07:22,888 --> 00:07:25,068 [Michael Marcon]
"Pick," just based on the name.
00:07:26,548 --> 00:07:26,728 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:07:26,728 --> 00:07:44,878 [Michael Marcon]
Who is going to manage your risk better? Who do you want to entrust your risk to? And that's all you have to go on. If 100 people out of 100 don't pick, pick Symphony Risk, I will eat my pocket square, right? It's d- d- because it, it moves them.
00:07:44,878 --> 00:07:44,948 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:07:44,948 --> 00:07:46,878 [Michael Marcon]
Symphony means something, right?
00:07:46,878 --> 00:07:46,888 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:07:46,888 --> 00:07:57,688 [Michael Marcon]
It's, it's beautiful. It's moving. It's touching. It goes into your soul. Th- the fact that that name was available boggles my mind.
00:07:57,688 --> 00:07:58,168 [Alex Shevelenko]
Surprise.
00:07:58,168 --> 00:08:00,288 [Michael Marcon]
Right? And, and so-
00:08:00,288 --> 00:08:04,548 [Alex Shevelenko]
Well, I just want to plug for the title of your book because it r- it will connect. It's Conductors Guide-
00:08:04,548 --> 00:08:05,388 [Michael Marcon]
Right, right. So the-
00:08:05,388 --> 00:08:07,408 [Alex Shevelenko]
... to, to Business and Life Success
00:08:07,408 --> 00:08:08,598 [Michael Marcon]
The, the title of the book is-
00:08:08,598 --> 00:08:10,128 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right? You must have thought about this. [laughs]
00:08:10,128 --> 00:08:23,928 [Michael Marcon]
The Conductor's Guide, yes, yes. Um, because again, think about th- what we're building as a firm. This isn't in communication, but what we're building as a firm is based on, uh, industry specialties, right?
00:08:23,928 --> 00:08:24,168 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:08:24,168 --> 00:08:37,368 [Michael Marcon]
And we take, we take the same concept. Again, words matter. We take the same concept of what you do in a symphony. You want the best musician for every instrument.
00:08:37,368 --> 00:08:37,488 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:08:37,488 --> 00:08:39,848 [Michael Marcon]
You want them to all play together.
00:08:39,848 --> 00:08:39,948 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:08:39,948 --> 00:09:00,448 [Michael Marcon]
People get that intuitively. So when we say to, to somebody, "Our firm is different." "Well, why?" "Well, we have all of these specialties, but, but they all come together under one roof, and they all play together." Now think about what a conductor does. If you've ever heard an orchestra warming up-
00:09:00,448 --> 00:09:00,468 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:09:00,468 --> 00:09:04,408 [Michael Marcon]
... before they get started, it sounds like crap.
00:09:04,408 --> 00:09:05,028 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:05,028 --> 00:09:15,108 [Michael Marcon]
Right? It sounds, it's, it, it's just cacophony. It's, it's, it sounds terrible until what does the conductor do? Tap, tap, tap.
00:09:15,108 --> 00:09:15,808 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:09:15,808 --> 00:09:22,628 [Michael Marcon]
Raises his hands. Now we're ready to go. And the next thing that comes out of them is beautiful, right?
00:09:22,628 --> 00:09:22,988 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:09:22,988 --> 00:09:30,988 [Michael Marcon]
And it's moving, and it's touching, and it's emotional. And, and it, and it touches people on this side.
00:09:30,988 --> 00:09:30,998 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:09:30,998 --> 00:09:35,738 [Michael Marcon]
They can read the notes. They know that it's Strauss or Beethoven or Mozart-
00:09:35,738 --> 00:09:35,768 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:09:35,768 --> 00:09:39,788 [Michael Marcon]
... and they can see the notes, but this is what you wanna touch.
00:09:39,788 --> 00:09:40,548 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:09:40,548 --> 00:10:05,148 [Michael Marcon]
And, and business is, is, is no different. And, and that's what I realized very early on, that there was a right way and a wrong way to communicate. Doesn't mean I get it right every time. It's trial and error sometimes, but that's, that's the differentiator, is how do you make them feel comfortable? For example-
00:10:05,148 --> 00:10:05,488 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:10:05,488 --> 00:10:13,928 [Michael Marcon]
... in communication, the use of buzzwords and industry terminology. Clients do not understand-
00:10:13,928 --> 00:10:14,018 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right
00:10:14,018 --> 00:10:16,008 [Michael Marcon]
... what we are selling them.
00:10:16,008 --> 00:10:16,028 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:10:16,028 --> 00:10:33,637 [Michael Marcon]
They don't understand it. They don't spend time in it. And, and so what, what does that mean? It means that they don't really understand what you're presenting to them, but they're not, most of them are afraid to admit that. So they're not gonna tell you, "I don't understand." They're just gonna nod their head and-
00:10:33,637 --> 00:10:39,848 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah, I didn't become successful by, by showing that I'm, I don't get it or I, I, I, like, I don't-
00:10:39,848 --> 00:10:40,008 [Michael Marcon]
Right, right
00:10:40,008 --> 00:10:42,808 [Alex Shevelenko]
... that's not the... Okay, understood.
00:10:42,808 --> 00:10:43,568 [Michael Marcon]
So, so
00:10:44,828 --> 00:10:51,288 [Michael Marcon]
w- when, in our firm, we eliminated any acronyms. You can't use an acronym in our firm,
00:10:52,428 --> 00:10:54,068 [Michael Marcon]
because the client doesn't know what-
00:10:54,068 --> 00:10:59,448 [Alex Shevelenko]
HSA, you kind of need to ex- at least give it, give it the full description-
00:10:59,448 --> 00:10:59,458 [Michael Marcon]
Right
00:10:59,458 --> 00:11:00,008 [Alex Shevelenko]
... and then-
00:11:00,008 --> 00:11:00,368 [Michael Marcon]
Right
00:11:00,368 --> 00:11:04,408 [Alex Shevelenko]
... so it's really funny that you say that. In our experience in working with benefits,
00:11:05,448 --> 00:11:10,638 [Alex Shevelenko]
uh, in particular, because that's both B2B and B2C, and so even the-
00:11:10,638 --> 00:11:10,638 [Michael Marcon]
Right
00:11:10,638 --> 00:11:16,948 [Alex Shevelenko]
... understanding is even worse sometimes for an average employee to understand what their benefit solution is.
00:11:16,948 --> 00:11:17,008 [Michael Marcon]
Wow.
00:11:17,008 --> 00:11:21,568 [Alex Shevelenko]
One of the things that, uh, clients love is the explainers,
00:11:22,608 --> 00:11:26,398 [Alex Shevelenko]
uh, which is sounds like this is philosophically what you were-
00:11:26,398 --> 00:11:26,428 [Michael Marcon]
Right
00:11:26,428 --> 00:11:28,448 [Alex Shevelenko]
... you've been believing in all along, right?
00:11:28,448 --> 00:11:29,248 [Michael Marcon]
Absolutely.
00:11:29,248 --> 00:11:41,928 [Alex Shevelenko]
Like, don't give me the, the, the term. I don't even know what it is, but, like, bring it in. If I'm, if I get to that section and I'm interested in it, I wanna know what it means for me in human language.
00:11:41,928 --> 00:11:45,608 [Michael Marcon]
Yes, and, and, and don't forget that even on B2B,
00:11:46,748 --> 00:11:46,988 [Michael Marcon]
right?
00:11:46,988 --> 00:11:47,448 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:11:47,448 --> 00:12:06,920 [Michael Marcon]
There's how many... I mean, I, I've been doing this, in November it'll be 40 years that I've been in business, and I've seen this hundreds and hundreds of times where we step into a company and the person in the role that's, that we're interacting with, a risk manager, a head of HR, a CFO-
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,640 [Michael Marcon]
They might have just got promoted into that job.
00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:10,120 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:23,280 [Michael Marcon]
And so you would expect, for example, using your example, you would expect that a head of HR knows what FSA is, right? And, and, and knows what A- you know, ACA is.
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:23,430 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:35,940 [Michael Marcon]
Um, and you just throw these, you know, around as if they're normal because we do it all day every day. But what about the person that was in a different role and just got promoted into that job? They have no clue.
00:12:35,940 --> 00:12:35,980 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:12:35,980 --> 00:12:45,910 [Michael Marcon]
And not only that, communication is, is the use of the words, how the words are presented, and the cadence, right?
00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:45,920 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,220 [Michael Marcon]
Because the other challenge we have as, as experts, right, is we go
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,390 [Michael Marcon]
really fast, really fast, and, and they can't keep up.
00:12:55,580 --> 00:13:18,040 [Michael Marcon]
So there's... It's, it's always easier to have the person on the other end say, "I, I get it. I understand that. I used to do this," or, "I understand what you're talking about," you know, "You can, you can move on," than to assume that they know everything when they don't. I, I made a joke to a colleague of mine, uh, months ago,
00:13:19,580 --> 00:13:47,340 [Michael Marcon]
um, and they, they asked me what, you know, what my superpower was as a, as an insurance broker. And I said, "Well, I'm not, I'm not smarter about coverage, you know, I'm not smarter about industry specialization. I've got really, really smart people that are industry experts and really, really smart people that are coverage experts." I said, "What I'm really good at is explaining to the other person what it means in English." And, and I joked with my colleague and I said, "If I had a dollar
00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:54,920 [Michael Marcon]
for every time I used the phrase to a client, 'It's kind of like-'"
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:55,050 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right. [laughs]
00:13:55,050 --> 00:14:06,220 [Michael Marcon]
"... it's kind of like,' if I had a dollar for every time I did that, I'd have as much money as Alex Chevalenko. Um, that's how much I'd have. It's th- I use it that often. Uh,
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:18,090 [Michael Marcon]
a- and, and then they go, "Oh, I get it." Because one of the things that I'll do is, depending on the person that I'm interacting with-
00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:18,340 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:32,949 [Michael Marcon]
... if I know the industry that they're in, that they specialize in, let's say it's aerospace, and I'm talking about a particular industry, I'll say, "It's kind of like when you're taxiing on the runway."
00:14:32,949 --> 00:14:32,949 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:14:32,949 --> 00:14:47,600 [Michael Marcon]
"You want to be able to..." Or, "It's kind of like when you're, when you're coming in for a landing," or, "It's kind of like when you're, you know, prepping before takeoff and you're doing your checklist." I put it into some terminology and some frame of reference-
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:48,080 [Alex Shevelenko]
That resonance, yeah
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,750 [Michael Marcon]
... that they see every day. Um, so-
00:14:51,750 --> 00:15:05,710 [Alex Shevelenko]
So that's brilliant. Is that, is that just natural, by the way, Michael? Or, or is this something that you've built over time? So for example, checklist works well in navigation, maybe in, in a healthcare context-
00:15:05,710 --> 00:15:05,710 [Michael Marcon]
Mm-hmm
00:15:05,710 --> 00:15:12,699 [Alex Shevelenko]
... where there is a very strong checklist culture, uh, to, to reduce risk of, around procedures-
00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:12,920 [Michael Marcon]
Right
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,100 [Alex Shevelenko]
... and processes.
00:15:14,100 --> 00:15:14,110 [Michael Marcon]
Right.
00:15:14,110 --> 00:15:14,110 [Alex Shevelenko]
Um,
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:23,120 [Alex Shevelenko]
a- and you just basically kind of know that industry enough and know that that's a, that's a reference that's gonna work? Do you come up-
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:23,380 [Michael Marcon]
Well, I-
00:15:23,380 --> 00:15:27,020 [Alex Shevelenko]
... with them on the fly? Like, I'm curious, how do you, how do you make that-
00:15:27,020 --> 00:15:30,240 [Michael Marcon]
You know, it started, th- that's how I learn.
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:30,540 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:15:30,540 --> 00:15:56,759 [Michael Marcon]
Right? So I, I, I've always learned in analogies. I, when I had to wrap my head around, I grew up in finance and that's, you know, my area of, of specialty. And so when I was trying to learn these things in business school, et cetera, I always tried to come up with, what is it like? What is it like that I could visualize? And then when I could get my head around it visually-
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:56,930 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:15:56,930 --> 00:16:32,600 [Michael Marcon]
... um, I would, I would be able to then approximate and find the words to explain what I was thinking. So I always took that with me in my, in my career path. Now that I'm a leader, right, I don't, I'm not the expert in healthcare. I'm not the expert in aerospace. I'm not the expert in real estate. I'm not the expert in construction. I'm not the expert in entertainment and education and hospitality and private equity. Well, I am kind of an expert in private equity, but other than those. Uh, so what I've done
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:56,070 [Michael Marcon]
is I just keep reinforcing the power of language and communication. Words matter. Words matter. Words matter. Presentation matters. Consistency matters. Subconscious, subconscious, subconscious. I want that in the heads of all of our, of our professionals.
00:16:56,070 --> 00:16:56,460 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:16:56,460 --> 00:16:59,440 [Michael Marcon]
They then apply that subconscious,
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:25,310 [Michael Marcon]
uh, objective that I gave them, and they apply it to their area of expertise. So to your point, our healthcare team, Symphony Health, they will, in a checklist-oriented environment, they'll still have me in their head telling them, "Words matter. Be concise," all of these things, but they'll apply it to the, to the fundamentals of how they communicate with their clients versus, um,
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,500 [Michael Marcon]
our, our, uh, team in aerospace that does it-
00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:30,540 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:17:30,540 --> 00:17:58,640 [Michael Marcon]
... completely differently. Um, but the consistency of, "Pick your words carefully. They matter. Um, subconscious decision-making. Um, uh, don't make them try to figure out what something means. Tell them what it means," et cetera, um, all of that I think is, is, is really important. Um,
00:17:59,660 --> 00:18:03,810 [Michael Marcon]
and then there's, there's the, the how it's all presented, right?
00:18:03,810 --> 00:18:03,820 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:18:03,820 --> 00:18:15,930 [Michael Marcon]
It was one of the things that, that, that blew me away, right, about your product and how you do it, is the, the, the beauty of the presentation.
00:18:15,930 --> 00:18:15,940 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:24,348 [Michael Marcon]
The consistency of the presentation. Um, it, it makes it easy to digest all of these complexities-
00:18:24,348 --> 00:18:24,358 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:18:24,358 --> 00:18:24,628 [Michael Marcon]
... right?
00:18:24,628 --> 00:18:24,688 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:18:24,688 --> 00:18:46,488 [Michael Marcon]
So it's not a jumble to the, to the, to the recipient. Um, and, and, you know, we've all been there. How many times have we done presentations to the client, and how many times have we put decks together that are 80 pages long, right? And they're like, "Where's the conclusion? Where's the conclusion?"
00:18:46,488 --> 00:18:46,498 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:18:46,498 --> 00:18:46,768 [Michael Marcon]
"Tell me what I need to know."
00:18:46,768 --> 00:18:50,968 [Alex Shevelenko]
Or, "Where's the part that I care about right now?" Yeah, it's sort of interesting you bring it up.
00:18:52,088 --> 00:19:09,128 [Alex Shevelenko]
So, like, if I had to play back, what, for people that are worried about some commoditization pressure, and I think maybe insurance has some of that, like, as you said, more. But I would say everybody should be worried about that in the age of AI to some degree.
00:19:09,128 --> 00:19:09,137 [Michael Marcon]
Mm-hmm.
00:19:09,137 --> 00:19:25,038 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right? Like, that is, if you, if it was kind of, uh, something that you uncovered that re- was important for brokers, it's, it's more important, you know, th- than ever. And then, um, the second thing is you have a complex subject matter, right?
00:19:25,038 --> 00:19:25,088 [Michael Marcon]
Yeah.
00:19:25,088 --> 00:19:54,168 [Alex Shevelenko]
So there's lots of content, lots of buzzwords, terminology. Not everybody, as you said, is an expert. And you, you know, when you're a business, business insurance provider, you cover a very broad spectrum of business needs as well, so I think that adds further to that complexity. So there's commoditization and complexity, and then the solution to that is kind of how do you translate it in a way that resonates with the audience?
00:19:55,388 --> 00:19:55,668 [Alex Shevelenko]
And
00:19:56,708 --> 00:20:05,158 [Alex Shevelenko]
w- certainly, we are very proud to get, like, the focus on the presentation and the visual layer, but we think words matter, too, right?
00:20:05,158 --> 00:20:05,208 [Michael Marcon]
Mm-hmm.
00:20:05,208 --> 00:20:17,728 [Alex Shevelenko]
AI can create an audio track. It could sort of add tr- you know, explanations for words that are maybe necessary to use that are, you know, definitions, but you don't want to bore people with definitions of everything-
00:20:17,728 --> 00:20:17,788 [Michael Marcon]
Correct
00:20:17,788 --> 00:20:25,488 [Alex Shevelenko]
... until they get to that part, right? So, but the part that I am curious also to get your take on is, like, okay, we've presented it,
00:20:26,648 --> 00:20:55,388 [Alex Shevelenko]
and then there's, in the meeting right now, we're having a conversation. You're nodding. There's that feedback loop. Oftentimes, we just send over something, and the people are not even in the room when they're consuming that, and we don't have that feedback loop. But we still need to understand if they understood, right? Because the communication is successful when actually the, there's some action that happens as a result or some level of understanding.
00:20:55,388 --> 00:20:55,808 [Michael Marcon]
Right.
00:20:55,808 --> 00:21:07,868 [Alex Shevelenko]
And typically, it's like a black, black hole. Like, you just send over some stuff, and then rarely do we get real time understanding and feedback, unless you're sitting across-
00:21:07,868 --> 00:21:08,568 [Michael Marcon]
Right
00:21:08,568 --> 00:21:13,078 [Alex Shevelenko]
... each other. So w- we're able to capture that. Like, what's your take on that part of-
00:21:13,078 --> 00:21:13,648 [Michael Marcon]
Mm-hmm
00:21:13,648 --> 00:21:16,068 [Alex Shevelenko]
... capturing that feedback from the client
00:21:17,528 --> 00:21:21,068 [Alex Shevelenko]
person or when, when you don't have the luxury of being in person?
00:21:21,068 --> 00:21:25,588 [Michael Marcon]
Well, you have to, you have to create a comfort level that they're going to give it to you, right?
00:21:25,588 --> 00:21:25,938 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:21:25,938 --> 00:21:26,428 [Michael Marcon]
And, and so
00:21:27,788 --> 00:21:33,838 [Michael Marcon]
th- that's, again, a, a skill set on how you tee up the process to begin with.
00:21:33,838 --> 00:21:34,448 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:21:34,448 --> 00:22:17,547 [Michael Marcon]
So I'll, I'll, I'll give you an example. Um, it's actually a, a personal example. I won't mention the person's name, but I have a, a, a friend who's a, a businessman, and he's, uh, building a, a sole proprietorship business, and he's dealing with some issues financially, and I'm kind of a quasi investor in this, in this business. And he sent me this long email about, "I'm dealing with this issue and this issue and this issue," and it's, it's very complicated. Um, he was very frustrated. It was kind of over, it was in over his head a little bit. Um, and I was traveling and, and, and had a very, very difficult schedule for a couple of weeks, so I wasn't able to address it right away, but I read through this email.
00:22:17,548 --> 00:22:17,578 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:22:17,578 --> 00:22:38,438 [Michael Marcon]
And, and I wrote him a note back, and I said, "Listen, I'm traveling for a couple of weeks. I'm gonna be back on this date, and we'll sit down and go through these five or six issues, um, that you've raised. But, but, but one thing I want you to take away from this note is I, I understand what the issue is. I, I've got a solution for you, and everything's going to be okay."
00:22:38,438 --> 00:22:38,988 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:22:38,988 --> 00:22:41,308 [Michael Marcon]
So, "And I'll talk to you in a couple of weeks."
00:22:42,448 --> 00:22:51,878 [Michael Marcon]
So a couple weeks go by. I finally meet up with the person, and I said, "Oh, by the way, do you wanna schedule some time to talk about this issue?" And, and he said to me,
00:22:52,928 --> 00:22:57,668 [Michael Marcon]
"I read your reply to me, and as soon as I heard you say, 'Everything's going to be okay,'
00:22:59,208 --> 00:23:11,628 [Michael Marcon]
my blood pressure came down dramatically. I took a deep breath, and I started addressing these issues on my own before you came back. And now I want to share with you all the things I've already done-
00:23:11,628 --> 00:23:11,788 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm
00:23:11,788 --> 00:23:16,348 [Michael Marcon]
... subsequent to that email and before I've seen you to fix it."
00:23:16,348 --> 00:23:16,948 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:23:16,948 --> 00:23:23,868 [Michael Marcon]
Because I gave him a comfort level, it's going to be okay, and he trusts me.
00:23:23,868 --> 00:23:24,027 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:23:24,028 --> 00:23:25,268 [Michael Marcon]
And, and so
00:23:26,328 --> 00:23:38,938 [Michael Marcon]
when you know you're p- putting something out that you're not gonna be able to get that immediate feedback, it's really important on how you tee up the presentation that I'm about to hand to Alex, right?
00:23:38,938 --> 00:23:39,248 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:23:39,248 --> 00:23:45,308 [Michael Marcon]
If I just say, "Attached is a presentation for your review. Please let me know if you have any questions. Kind regards, Michael."
00:23:45,308 --> 00:23:45,368 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:23:45,368 --> 00:24:07,618 [Michael Marcon]
That's a completely different dynamic than, "Alex, I'm so proud to send you this, this information. We've been grinding on this for a month. I can't wait for you to see it. Here are three things that you're gonna see in there. There's lots of details. I'm happy to walk through them with you. But here's the headline. You're going to save money. Your coverage is going to get better. Y- you know, your-
00:24:07,618 --> 00:24:07,638 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right
00:24:07,638 --> 00:24:20,888 [Michael Marcon]
... hair's gonna get fuller. You're gonna lose 15 pounds, and you're gonna meet a sexy woman. You know, and I'm giving all of that to you in this proposal. See you in a week." [laughs] Right? Um, that's a lot better than-
00:24:20,888 --> 00:24:24,698 [Alex Shevelenko]
Can I train my AI agent on doing that intro? [laughs]
00:24:24,698 --> 00:24:24,748 [Michael Marcon]
[laughs]
00:24:24,748 --> 00:24:25,988 [Alex Shevelenko]
I liked it.
00:24:25,988 --> 00:24:28,540 [Michael Marcon]
But the, but the point is-
00:24:28,540 --> 00:24:49,290 [Michael Marcon]
You're now, you're now, you're now giving them a headline, so now they're reading your proposal, your findings, your report, whatever, through the prism of this level of expectation. It doesn't mean you lie to them. I'm not suggesting that at all, because they'll see through that and they'll never trust you.
00:24:49,290 --> 00:24:49,340 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:24:49,340 --> 00:24:59,340 [Michael Marcon]
If it's bad news, give them bad news, right? But, but say, "Oh, by the way, here's the bad news. I've g- I've, I've included two solutions in here."
00:24:59,340 --> 00:24:59,470 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:24:59,470 --> 00:25:07,660 [Michael Marcon]
"And one of them has this outcome, one of them has that outcome. There's a lot, again, there's a lot of details in there. Once you've digested it,
00:25:08,780 --> 00:25:19,040 [Michael Marcon]
I'm happy to answer questions. I'm happy to follow up with you." And you give them a comfort level that you're not just dumping it in their lap and they have no recourse.
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:19,240 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:32,620 [Michael Marcon]
So it's all about how you tee it up. Um, and, and it's not that complicated. What would you want to read if it were you? If-
00:25:32,620 --> 00:25:33,059 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:25:33,059 --> 00:25:38,020 [Michael Marcon]
I always, I always ask myself, if I'm sitting on the other side of this desk-
00:25:38,020 --> 00:25:38,030 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right
00:25:38,030 --> 00:25:42,300 [Michael Marcon]
... and I'm the recipient, what do I want to see?
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:42,660 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:25:42,660 --> 00:26:05,790 [Michael Marcon]
What do I want to hear? What questions will I have, and how will I go about answering those in advance and anticipating them as best I can? You're never going to bat 1000. Y- no one expects you to bat 1000. Because here's the other important thing. Again, it's, it's the subconscious stuff. I keep coming back to this. I, I believe this at my core.
00:26:05,790 --> 00:26:05,800 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,980 [Michael Marcon]
It's the subconscious stuff. They can tell when you're trying.
00:26:09,980 --> 00:26:10,030 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:26:10,030 --> 00:26:20,359 [Michael Marcon]
They can tell when you're making the effort, and when they know you're making the effort and they know you've got their back because you're, you, they can sense it in everything you're doing.
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:20,740 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:26:20,740 --> 00:26:28,180 [Michael Marcon]
Even though it's just, it's just words on a page, or it's electrons on a screen, but it comes across.
00:26:28,180 --> 00:26:28,330 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:26:28,330 --> 00:26:28,540 [Michael Marcon]
Um,
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:37,680 [Michael Marcon]
that's when you build this connection of trust. That carries you through bad news, right?
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:37,820 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:26:37,820 --> 00:26:38,019 [Michael Marcon]
Um,
00:26:39,380 --> 00:26:40,080 [Michael Marcon]
and, and then-
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:40,110 [Alex Shevelenko]
So it's basically your intent
00:26:40,110 --> 00:26:43,860 [Michael Marcon]
... every now and then, if you give them good news, it reinforces it.
00:26:43,860 --> 00:26:46,580 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah. So, so if I'm hearing correctly, you really need to be
00:26:47,620 --> 00:26:48,640 [Alex Shevelenko]
intentional.
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,440 [Michael Marcon]
Absolutely.
00:26:51,440 --> 00:27:00,740 [Alex Shevelenko]
Uh, and, and you know, the, the, the, there's an, and a little bit of, um, transactional mindset oftentimes in business.
00:27:00,740 --> 00:27:00,760 [Michael Marcon]
Right.
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:08,380 [Alex Shevelenko]
And what you're saying is like, well, we, we can ... There are times to do transactions, but I think the intention is the first, the, the killer-
00:27:08,380 --> 00:27:08,390 [Michael Marcon]
Right
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:16,510 [Alex Shevelenko]
... the most important thing. And then when you build enough trust and y- you know, and, and that connection, you can build the transactions. A- and versus, yeah.
00:27:16,510 --> 00:27:31,660 [Michael Marcon]
Well, you've heard the, you've heard this, this phrase before. I don't know who said it. I, maybe you do, but the, the, the famous line where somebody said, you know, "Dear George, I've, uh, I apologize for writing you a long letter. I didn't have time to write you a short one."
00:27:31,660 --> 00:27:31,970 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:27:31,970 --> 00:27:36,620 [Michael Marcon]
Right. Um, so anybody can just spew, right?
00:27:36,620 --> 00:27:36,700 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:42,780 [Michael Marcon]
Um, it's really hard. You know, it's, it's, it's, you know, Bezos, no PowerPoints. Put it all on, you know-
00:27:42,780 --> 00:27:42,830 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:27:42,830 --> 00:27:47,020 [Michael Marcon]
... one slide or however it works, right? Um, that's hard to do.
00:27:48,220 --> 00:27:50,900 [Michael Marcon]
You know? That's hard to do. Um, and-
00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:51,490 [Alex Shevelenko]
And then in one of our, in-
00:27:51,490 --> 00:27:57,580 [Michael Marcon]
... one of the things we put in the book, we put that in the book about give people short, declarative sentences.
00:27:57,580 --> 00:27:57,600 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:06,940 [Michael Marcon]
Give them bullet points. Don't give them paragraphs. Don't give them faux legalese. You don't need to start sentences with, "Notwithstanding the foregoing," right?
00:28:06,940 --> 00:28:06,950 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:09,000 [Michael Marcon]
You don't need to do that. Just give them-
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:09,010 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:28:09,010 --> 00:28:14,720 [Michael Marcon]
... the, the, the statement. Um, they're smart people. They'll f- they'll figure it out. Um,
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:22,700 [Michael Marcon]
make it easy for them to digest. And, and if you have to caveat, caveat, caveat,
00:28:23,740 --> 00:28:25,140 [Michael Marcon]
you probably didn't do your job,
00:28:26,340 --> 00:28:32,440 [Michael Marcon]
right? And they're going to see through that. And, and, you know, good news comes in one sentence.
00:28:34,020 --> 00:28:34,929 [Alex Shevelenko]
That's beautiful.
00:28:34,929 --> 00:28:34,980 [Michael Marcon]
Right?
00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:43,940 [Alex Shevelenko]
So it's interesting. A lot of our focus in relate to community is around regulated industries, right? In regulated industries like insurance, uh,
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,710 [Alex Shevelenko]
there is a bias, right? There's a lot of legal folks, right? Like it is, uh-
00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:48,859 [Michael Marcon]
Yep
00:28:48,859 --> 00:28:56,720 [Alex Shevelenko]
... insurance is a contract, right? Like, ultimately you're, you're sell, you're, what you're selling is a contract, uh, and promise. It is very,
00:28:57,740 --> 00:29:06,840 [Alex Shevelenko]
uh, very much inclined therefore to go into this caveats and, and, you know, be complete and be legally sound.
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:07,039 [Michael Marcon]
Mm-hmm.
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,650 [Alex Shevelenko]
And there's nothing wrong with that, but I think that comes later, right? First you need to be-
00:29:11,650 --> 00:29:11,650 [Michael Marcon]
Right
00:29:11,650 --> 00:29:41,120 [Alex Shevelenko]
... coherent. And then the, the other, I wanna resonate something by you. So, so I write sometimes notes to people, and I'm writing the email and I'm grinning, and my wife is like la- like, "What are, what are you doing? Are you watching a movie or, you know, what are ... [laughs] Are you working even?" And, uh, I, I found that it was interesting observation because when I'm writing someone that I like or wanna connect with and maybe trying to write something funny, I'm smiling-
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:41,800 [Michael Marcon]
Right
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,510 [Alex Shevelenko]
... when I'm writing that. Uh, and I didn't, I wasn't even aware of that necessarily.
00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:46,070 [Michael Marcon]
Right.
00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:59,880 [Alex Shevelenko]
And I, I think that was, I was reflecting when you were talking about kind of how you write your email, is that that's effectively like your mental state needs to be, you know, I'm here, I'm almost smiling. I'm not, maybe this person is not-
00:29:59,880 --> 00:29:59,920 [Michael Marcon]
Yes
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:09,680 [Alex Shevelenko]
... getting it in real time. We're having fun, or we're kind of, or we're being real, you know. Like, there's some authentic emotion that's happening-
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:09,700 [Michael Marcon]
Yeah
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:12,799 [Alex Shevelenko]
... versus a transaction, which is the opposite of emotion.
00:30:13,704 --> 00:30:21,914 [Michael Marcon]
Well, and that, and that, again, that comes down to how you choose your words and how you do it. It's where it's coming from.
00:30:21,914 --> 00:30:22,474 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:30:22,474 --> 00:30:28,304 [Michael Marcon]
And, and I'm a contrarian on, on a lot of this stuff, so I send handwritten notes to people.
00:30:28,304 --> 00:30:28,324 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:30:28,324 --> 00:30:30,384 [Michael Marcon]
Why? 'Cause they don't get them from anyone else.
00:30:30,384 --> 00:30:30,423 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:30:30,424 --> 00:30:33,144 [Michael Marcon]
So it stands out when you get a handwritten note. Um-
00:30:33,144 --> 00:30:33,724 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:30:33,724 --> 00:30:57,944 [Michael Marcon]
... you know, every, every employee in Symphony Risk Solutions gets a handwritten birthday card from me every year, right? Which, which is getting harder and harder to do. When I come back from a business trip and I open this drawer right here, and, and Melissa, my assistant, will have all the cards I have to do for that month, and it's like, [laughs] "Okay, here we go." Right? And I... But I do it. Why? Because it means something. It touches them. And,
00:30:59,224 --> 00:30:59,384 [Michael Marcon]
and
00:31:00,464 --> 00:31:09,504 [Michael Marcon]
y- I, I, I understand regulatory requirements. They're, they're there for a reason. It's a shame that society has gotten to the point where we have to over-regulate all of this.
00:31:09,504 --> 00:31:10,024 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:31:10,024 --> 00:31:19,234 [Michael Marcon]
There's ways to do it. And, and, and, and, and again, we don't wanna manage business to the lowest common denominator.
00:31:19,234 --> 00:31:19,264 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:31:19,264 --> 00:31:26,664 [Michael Marcon]
If someone wants to sue you, and if someone wants to be offended, they're going to sue you or they're going to be offended no matter what you do, right?
00:31:26,664 --> 00:31:27,204 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:31:27,204 --> 00:31:33,784 [Michael Marcon]
So there's a, there's a fine line between saying your mileage may vary-
00:31:33,784 --> 00:31:34,044 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:31:35,204 --> 00:31:47,584 [Michael Marcon]
... versus when you watch the commercial of a guy jumping out of an airplane, you know, with no parachute, drinking a Mountain Dew, and you have to put at the bottom, you know, "Do not attempt this."
00:31:47,584 --> 00:31:49,324 [Alex Shevelenko]
Do not attempt this at... Right.
00:31:49,324 --> 00:32:07,194 [Michael Marcon]
Well, okay, right? You know, telling a, telling a client that, that, you know, their, their, uh, uh, premium calculations may be affected by, uh, the final calculation of their census, right?
00:32:07,194 --> 00:32:07,304 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:32:07,304 --> 00:32:14,044 [Michael Marcon]
Or, or if employees move into different states, you know, we gave you an estimated premium-
00:32:14,044 --> 00:32:14,054 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:32:14,054 --> 00:32:32,644 [Michael Marcon]
... not an actual premium. And to say, you know, this is just our, our estimate, the, the actual priority is the insurance company that sends you the bill, that's one thing. To say, you know, we can't give you any estimates at all whatsoever because we don't know what the actual number's going to be, and therefore-
00:32:32,644 --> 00:32:32,654 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah
00:32:32,654 --> 00:32:48,343 [Michael Marcon]
... we're not gonna take the risk to tell you what that number will be because you're gonna hold us to it if we're wrong. You know, at some point you have to assume that, that people are reasonable, and, and that there's no intent to defraud, right?
00:32:48,344 --> 00:32:48,563 [Alex Shevelenko]
Sure.
00:32:48,564 --> 00:32:58,244 [Michael Marcon]
Um, and that's just reality, and I don't ever wanna be in a society where, where your disclosure, your disclosure pages are longer than your proposal.
00:32:59,584 --> 00:33:21,994 [Alex Shevelenko]
So on that note, if we shift to another kind of area of, that, that you're expert in, and that's private equity, right? And we live in a society where private equity is an important, um, allocator, uh, and owner of resources, and you've, you've sold to, specifically to private equity firms. You have private equity investors you've exited, uh-
00:33:21,994 --> 00:33:21,994 [Michael Marcon]
Yep
00:33:21,994 --> 00:33:52,084 [Alex Shevelenko]
... to private equity folks. You know that industry inside and out. Uh, and one, one of the things that intrigued me is that you said that, hey, this, you could leverage something like RelateTo in private equity-owned businesses, uh, for private equity folks. Tell me a little bit about how to, uh, you know, those of us that are living in that environment have, have private equity folks as some kind of stakeholders or customers, how do we think about communications in that universe?
00:33:52,084 --> 00:34:28,974 [Michael Marcon]
Yeah. It's, um, it's a different dynamic. Uh, first of all, yes, I have been doing that for a very long time. Um, so the comment I always make is I've been working with private equity firms since before they were called private equity firms, right? So I go way back. Um, and, and they are, they are the smartest people on the planet, um, and some of them will actually tell you that. [laughs] And, but they are. They're the smartest. They're the hardest working. Um, I always advise our teams, do not BS a private equity professional.
00:34:28,974 --> 00:34:28,984 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:34:28,984 --> 00:34:31,253 [Michael Marcon]
They will see right through it in a heartbeat.
00:34:31,253 --> 00:34:31,284 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:34:31,284 --> 00:34:47,604 [Michael Marcon]
And private equity professionals are the only people I've ever met in almost 40 years in business who will, who will say, well, they'll be on slide 40 and say, "Well, why doesn't this number match on slide 12? Shouldn't it be the same number?"
00:34:47,604 --> 00:34:47,614 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:34:47,614 --> 00:34:49,764 [Michael Marcon]
And it's like, how did you find that?
00:34:49,764 --> 00:34:49,924 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:34:49,924 --> 00:34:55,203 [Michael Marcon]
You know? And I go through this stuff with a fine-tooth comb, and I didn't find it. They're that good, and they're-
00:34:55,204 --> 00:34:55,254 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:34:55,254 --> 00:34:59,024 [Michael Marcon]
... that smart. Um, and they're trained really well.
00:35:00,064 --> 00:35:19,834 [Michael Marcon]
So one of the things that, that, that I've learned, and, and everybody who's now gonna go copy this, have at it, um, and, and I wish you all the success in the world. Private equity professionals want answers. Their job is to look at, at outcomes. If you think about-
00:35:19,834 --> 00:35:19,834 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:35:19,834 --> 00:35:35,104 [Michael Marcon]
... what a private equity professional does every day, they build these enormous financial models, and these enormous financial models are loaded to the gills with assumptions.
00:35:35,104 --> 00:35:35,544 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:35:35,544 --> 00:35:52,424 [Michael Marcon]
Interest rates, demand, supply, raw materials, hiring, compensation, market performance, what competitors are going to do, what... Everything, right? It's all, it's just enormous amount of assumptions.
00:35:53,504 --> 00:35:55,824 [Michael Marcon]
And if as an advisor to them
00:35:56,944 --> 00:36:02,764 [Michael Marcon]
you can take one or two of the assumptions in their model and turn it to a fact-
00:36:02,764 --> 00:36:02,794 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:36:02,794 --> 00:36:06,714 [Michael Marcon]
... it's two or three or four less things they have to worry about. It's like-
00:36:06,714 --> 00:36:06,714 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:36:06,714 --> 00:36:10,944 [Michael Marcon]
... we got that taken care of. We can focus on all these other variables that we don't know so much about.
00:36:12,544 --> 00:36:12,824 [Michael Marcon]
So
00:36:14,044 --> 00:36:21,476 [Michael Marcon]
in the closest... And if you can't turn it to a fact, then turn it to a reasonable certainty.
00:36:21,476 --> 00:36:32,116 [Michael Marcon]
I can't promise you, but I, you know, I, I tell a joke to them. I wouldn't bet my firstborn, but I'd bet my second born that this is going to be the outcome, right?
00:36:32,116 --> 00:36:33,296 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:36:33,296 --> 00:36:52,136 [Michael Marcon]
And but there's never any certainty. I have an- another joke that I tell our clients when they ask me, "Well, why do I need this coverage? I don't understand why I need to buy this coverage. I don't understand why I'm paying the price for this coverage." And I always say to them, "Okay,
00:36:54,316 --> 00:37:02,846 [Michael Marcon]
if you don't tell anybody, I'm gonna let you in on my foolproof method that, that will guarantee certainty on-"
00:37:02,846 --> 00:37:02,856 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm
00:37:02,856 --> 00:37:12,796 [Michael Marcon]
... whether you need to buy this insurance policy or not, but you have to promise not to tell anybody because it's a proprietary al- algorithm, and no one else has it."
00:37:12,796 --> 00:37:13,626 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:37:13,626 --> 00:37:35,836 [Michael Marcon]
"And, and, and the data points are really, really specific, but if you can give me the data points, which, which I think you have, right, then I can give you an answer with 100% certainty, and I have never missed." And they go, "Okay." I said, "Okay, so here's the data I need to determine for my algorithm whether or not you need to buy this insurance policy.
00:37:38,236 --> 00:37:40,336 [Michael Marcon]
Tell me if you're going to have a claim or not."
00:37:42,806 --> 00:37:42,806 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:37:42,806 --> 00:37:43,616 [Michael Marcon]
And then I just sit there.
00:37:44,976 --> 00:37:51,036 [Michael Marcon]
And they go, "Well, I don't know if I'm gonna have a claim." And then I say, "Well, then how am I supposed to tell you whether you need to buy the coverage or not," right? [laughs]
00:37:51,036 --> 00:37:51,216 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:37:51,216 --> 00:38:03,276 [Michael Marcon]
If you don't know whether you're going to have a claim, then I can't tell you whether you need to buy the coverage. That's why you do it, because you don't know. It's a hedge against uncertainty.
00:38:03,276 --> 00:38:03,486 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:38:03,486 --> 00:38:10,136 [Michael Marcon]
And everybody has a different threshold for how much risk they want to assume, right?
00:38:11,216 --> 00:38:28,576 [Michael Marcon]
Just like a lot of the work that you do is in employee benefits, and, and everybody that's buying employee benefits has to deci- how much do we charge to the employee? How much do we keep for ourselves? What are we going to do? What benefits are we going to offer? How do we bring down the cost? All of this stuff.
00:38:28,576 --> 00:38:28,676 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm-hmm.
00:38:28,676 --> 00:38:46,676 [Michael Marcon]
Everybody is searching. Well, guess what? Every business is different, and every business is going to, to come up with a different solution that works for them based on their risk tolerance, based on their financial, uh, uh, projections, based on their investor base, based on, you know, where they are in their life cycle.
00:38:47,836 --> 00:39:01,556 [Michael Marcon]
Not our job to make that decision for them. It's our job to advise them, right? So give them facts, give them, give them, uh, analysis, give them data,
00:39:03,036 --> 00:39:06,216 [Michael Marcon]
give them potential scenarios.
00:39:06,216 --> 00:39:06,656 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:39:06,656 --> 00:39:14,596 [Michael Marcon]
And then here's, here's the secret to private equity that no one, everyone in insurance is afraid to do.
00:39:15,736 --> 00:39:17,276 [Michael Marcon]
When they ask you your opinion,
00:39:18,356 --> 00:39:20,216 [Michael Marcon]
give them an answer.
00:39:20,216 --> 00:39:20,816 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:39:21,836 --> 00:39:30,216 [Michael Marcon]
If I were you, again, other than, it's, you know, the number, the number one thing if I wish I had a dollar was, it's kind of like.
00:39:30,276 --> 00:39:30,576 [Alex Shevelenko]
Yeah.
00:39:30,576 --> 00:39:36,236 [Michael Marcon]
The second thing I wish I had a dollar for was every time I said to a client, "If I were you, I would do this."
00:39:37,556 --> 00:39:50,316 [Michael Marcon]
Based on everything I know about you, if you're asking my opinion, I would buy this coverage. I wouldn't buy that. I'd buy this limit. I would b- I would, I would have this employee contribution. I would have this 401[k] match.
00:39:51,756 --> 00:39:55,716 [Michael Marcon]
My opinion. You asked my opinion, I gave it to you. I
00:39:56,816 --> 00:39:58,136 [Michael Marcon]
give them trust,
00:39:59,256 --> 00:40:02,116 [Michael Marcon]
and in return I get trust back.
00:40:02,116 --> 00:40:02,216 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:40:02,216 --> 00:40:08,676 [Michael Marcon]
I trust them. They trust me that I'm going to give them my honest opinion.
00:40:08,676 --> 00:40:09,055 [Alex Shevelenko]
Mm.
00:40:09,056 --> 00:40:10,976 [Michael Marcon]
They, I trust them
00:40:12,016 --> 00:40:13,956 [Michael Marcon]
that if the facts change,
00:40:15,356 --> 00:40:18,456 [Michael Marcon]
my opinion will change, and they're not gonna hold that against me.
00:40:19,536 --> 00:40:20,576 [Alex Shevelenko]
Right.
00:40:20,576 --> 00:40:37,766 [Michael Marcon]
When they ask me my opinion and I give it to them, and then something negative happens six months down the road and they say, "You told us it was X," and I, and I can respond to them and say, "Yes, because you told me you weren't going to do any acquisitions. You just did three in the last quarter."
00:40:37,766 --> 00:40:37,766 [Alex Shevelenko]
That makes perfect-
00:40:37,766 --> 00:40:59,116 [Michael Marcon]
"Well, if I would've known that, I would've given you a different answer." I trust they're not gonna do that to me, and they trust I'm going to give them a, a straight answer that's not, uh, couched in, in caveats. Well, it depends. Well, it depends. Well, it depends. Well, great. Anybody can do that. Tell me what you think,
00:41:00,176 --> 00:41:01,036 [Michael Marcon]
right? I'm not-
00:41:01,036 --> 00:41:01,046 [Alex Shevelenko]
That's so important
00:41:01,046 --> 00:41:04,096 [Michael Marcon]
... I've never been afraid, I've never been afraid to give them a straight answer.
00:41:06,396 --> 00:41:13,016 [Alex Shevelenko]
Beautiful. Michael, I know we're on the hour. I wasn't gonna ask for the last piece of wisdom, but that was the mic drop. If I-
00:41:13,016 --> 00:41:13,276 [Michael Marcon]
[laughs]
00:41:13,276 --> 00:41:18,876 [Alex Shevelenko]
... if I were you. Thank you so much for your support and sharing your wisdom. This has been brilliant.
00:41:18,876 --> 00:41:26,236 [Michael Marcon]
Alex, I l- I l- I love you, and I love the business, and I'm, I'm so pleased to be a small part of it, and thanks for having me.
00:41:26,236 --> 00:41:27,675 [Alex Shevelenko]
Thank you so much.
00:41:27,676 --> 00:41:28,286 [Michael Marcon]
All right, take care.